Make Marketing Suck Less

How to Stand Out With Your Podcast in 2023 with Jeremy Enns


Where are my podcasters at?

If you have a podcast or are just thinking about creating one, then today’s show is for you.

My guest, Jeremy Enns, and I are discussing what it takes to create a podcast that gets noticed and stands out in a sea of a million other podcasts.

Plus, we’re talking about how to build a podcast that actually lands you clients. We’re diving into the one step that most podcasters overlook when starting their show and how to market your podcast in a scrappy way in 2023.

Jeremy Enns is the founder of Podcast Marketing Academy, where he teaches brands and creators to hit their next growth milestone with detailed step-by-step marketing playbooks. He writes the Scrappy Podcast newsletter where he shares short actionable ideas around how underdog shows can punch above their weight.

So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jeremy and stay to the end because Jeremy shares something that's truly insightful about what it takes to be successful in business these days.



In this episode:

  • Why you have to start with market research, plus Jeremy’s tips for how to do it for your podcast
  • Why you shouldn’t be afraid to make content and position your show for experts
  • What a podcast really does for your audience and your business in 2023
  • Why you shouldn’t throw money at advertising your podcast at the beginning, and what to do to build your audience instead

Learn more about Jeremy Enns:

Learn more about Michelle Mazur:




Listen on your favorite podcast player or read the Transcript below:

Dr. Michelle Mazur (00:00): Where are my podcasters at? If you have a podcast or are thinking about creating one, then today's show is for you. My guest, Jeremy Enns and I are discussing what it takes to create a podcast that gets noticed and stands out in a sea of a million other podcasts. Plus, how do you build a podcast that lands you clients? And we're going to dive deep into the one step that most podcasters overlook when starting their show. I even overlooked this step, and how to market your podcast in a scrappy way in 2023.

(00:44): So a little bit about Jeremy before we start. He is the founder of the Podcast Marketing Academy, where he teaches brands and creators to hit their next growth milestone with detailed step-by-step marketing playbooks. He's also writing the Scrappy Podcast Newsletter where he shares short actionable ideas around how underdog shows can punch above their weight. He's originally from the cold, barren Canadian Prairies, but has been traveling full-time for the past six years. So I hope you enjoy this conversation with Jeremy, and please excuse my voice. I have been suffering from laryngitis for a couple of weeks at the time of this recording. So enjoy the show and stay to the end because Jeremy shares something that's truly insightful about what it takes to be successful in business these days.

(01:50): Get ready for the Rebel Uprising podcast, the only podcast dedicated to business owners who feel overlooked for their expertise, skills and experience. Let's claim your expertise and turn your complex ideas into unmistakable messaging that grows your business. I am your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, the author of The 3 Word Rebellion and your Rebel Troop Telling Guide to Building a Business That Gets Noticed. Jeremy Enns, welcome to the Rebel Uprising podcast. I am so excited that you are here with us today.

Jeremy Enns (02:27): Yeah. Thank you so much for having me, Michelle. I am very excited to be here.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (02:31): Jeremy and I have known each other for probably over a year now. I joined his Podcast Marketing Academy to dial in a lot of what was happening in this podcast and also to become more systematic with marketing my own podcast, but the thing I don't know about you, Jeremy, is how did you get into podcasting to begin with?

Jeremy Enns (02:55): So let's see. I just passed my seven-year anniversary in professional podcasting, I suppose, which my first client was just over seven years ago, two weeks ago was the seven-year anniversary. So that was back in 2016, I suppose if we're in 2023. That math I think seems to make sense, but I got into audio engineering and production in 2011. I went to school and graduated in 2012, took a year long program that was pretty in-depth, hands-on, meant for the music industry essentially, although I do know a lot of people who went into the film industry as well that I went to school with. And so essentially I wanted to work in music and went through school, got an internship at a big studio in Vancouver where I'm originally from, and was interning at the studio, unpaid, a day or two a week for about a year, and realized that this wasn't really the career path that I wanted.

(03:47): And so essentially the people who were moving up the ranks from unpaid interns to paid assistants and things like that were there every single day of the week, showing up at 8:00 AM leaving at 4:00 AM, just crazy. And most of this, it's all unpaid and which is I think technically illegal, I believe.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (04:05): Oh, wow. That feels like it should be illegal. Yes.

Jeremy Enns (04:06): But it's one of those industries where it's just like so many creative industries. There's people willing to do it, and so studios can get away with it, and I could not afford to do that. And so realized I was never going to get ahead in the studio hierarchy, but I was always thinking about making it as a freelance career. But when I just thought about, "What's the earning potential here? What is my life going to look like for the next many years, decade?" It was just obvious to me that this isn't really what I want to commit that much time to, and I didn't really know what I wanted to do next. And took a year off, went traveling and came back and was like, "I want to do more of that."

(04:42): And after that point, I didn't know online business existed. I didn't really know podcasting existed or I heard a hobbit at that time, but had never listened to a show myself and discovered podcasting and online business almost in the same day because I went into iTunes and was like... I didn't even know what to search. I knew as I was a creative person, I wanted to start my own business and put those search terms into the box in iTunes at the time. And Smart Passive Income came up and a bunch of other shows, and I went down the rabbit hole and a few months later, realized that my existing skills poured it over perfectly to the online business world.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (05:15): That's amazing. Yeah, I had no idea you were hoping to be a studio engineer working with great musicians, but I can also see unpaid labor is not cool.

Jeremy Enns (05:28): No, not so much.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (05:28): So what I wanted to talk to you about was like, how do we grow our podcasts? And there are so many podcasts being started every single day. So how do you really create a show that can stand out from all the competition?

Jeremy Enns (05:45): Yeah. So I think like what you said there is actually the starting point, and most people skip that step or eventually reach that step, but really starting with something that can stand out. One of the great ironies of marketing and creative work for me is that most of us don't want to do marketing necessarily. Now, I love marketing at this point, but there are certainly fun aspects to it, and there's parts that are just always going to be a grind. You got to keep doing it.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (06:10): Yep.

Jeremy Enns (06:10): And that's just part of the game, but I think we all have our creative craft or skill that we really want to spend our time doing. And in this context, that's creating the show itself. Maybe it's doing the interviews, maybe you love editing and doing sound design or whatever it is, but I think that the irony here is that we want to spend less time marketing, but the way to do that is create something that actually stands out on its own in the first place and is what I would call a marketable show, and we often skip that step. And so essentially what we end up doing is creating a show that's largely generic and that if we want it to grow, we have to market 10 times harder than if we had actually done the research upfront and created a show that was actually marketable.

(06:47): And so I think starting at that spot, actually creating a marketable show, that comes down to finding, I think a lot of times a compromise. I know this is more of a business audience, so this is I think a bit easier than maybe a more artistic audience, but finding this blend of where our personal craft and artistry and the show that we want to make lines up and overlaps with what people are... there's an interest in. We can see that, oh, these types of shows are doing well, but also there's some gaps here. And this is how I can create a show that isn't just another copycat show, generic interview show on this topic, that there's already 25 that exist out there. And there's really, if anybody didn't know me and came across all these shows, they wouldn't be able to tell that my show is any different from any of those other ones.

(07:29): And so I think that's really the first step that involves some market research, some maybe listening to the other shows that are out there. I think we all have been there where it feels bad sometimes when you go and listen to more established shows and you realize you can't create at that level yet. But it's also helpful at the start to realize, "Okay, well, maybe I can't create at that level yet, but I see there's an opportunity here that nobody's doing this thing, and if I start today, within a year from now, I can own that space there." And so I think that's really where the starting point should be when it comes to marketing and starting a show.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (07:59): So it sounds like step number one before, because I know people do this all the time. They're like, "I'm going to have a podcast and I'm just going to start and I'm going to interview some great people." And then all of a sudden, I had a conversation the other week with a friend of mine and she's like, "Well, I don't feel like my podcast actually leads people to my work and my business." And I'm like, "No, you're just interviewing a bunch of people. How would that ever lead to your work?" Almost like, you have to be intentional about creating a show that highlights your thoughts and your experience and your expertise.

(08:37): And yes, you can still interview people, but you have to interview them in service of your business. I'm interviewing you because this month is all about how do we stand out online? And so creating a standout podcast is a huge part of that. So it sounds like step one, figure out who your audience is and how to serve them, and then go and do the research and look what else is out there.

(09:05): So when you're starting to think about how to position your show, what are some of the variables you should be thinking about so you can find that little spot in the market where you can just sneak right in and your show fits well?

Jeremy Enns (09:19): There's almost infinite variables that you could choose. I think the thing to keep in mind is that you want to come up with a set of variables and specifically one spectrum on an X, Y axis, one quadrant that you can occupy that people would actually choose a show based on that, and I think that's a mistake. You can choose a bunch of variables and you can say, "Well, my show is the most... Whatever. There's no other show that is this X, Y, Z as mine is." But if that's not a reason that somebody would choose one show over another show that you can actually have proof of that you've talked to listeners and they've said, "Oh yeah, these shows are great, but I really wish there was something that was more... whatever."

Dr. Michelle Mazur (09:54): Yeah.

Jeremy Enns (09:55): They're telling you that, "Oh, if this thing existed, I would listen to that versus the current shows that I'm listening to, or at least in addition to supplement those other ones." And I think that that's actually an interesting point, is that with media consumption, usually we're not actually saying people are currently listening to this show, but I'm going to pull them all away and they're only going to listen to mine. It's like we all listen for the topics we're interested in. We listen to different shows and read different newsletters to get a different aspect of that.

(10:21): And so some of those might be, we might listen to, for example, on just creative work in general let's say, something that I write a lot about and in that world. And so some of the things I read are very inspirational. Some of them are highly actionable, and I want both of those because... And I don't expect to get them from the same place, and I don't believe somebody trying to do both is necessarily going to give me both adequately.

(10:42): And so I think thinking about what are the reasons that your ideal audience, what are the shows they're currently listening to? And I would just start to make a big list. If there's 20 shows, just use one adjective to describe each show or list a few of them. And so you could say some are super highly actionable, some are really advanced, some are really beginner, and you'll start to notice the shows group themselves. And so you'll be able to see some trends-

Dr. Michelle Mazur (11:05): [inaudible 00:11:06].

Jeremy Enns (11:06): Yeah. And you can plot these. Then I mentioned the X, Y graph, and this is how I usually like to approach positioning. And you can just start to put visually, okay, all these shows, they all seem to be more on the beginner side, and some of them are more actionable, some of them are more inspirational, some maybe you're like story driven or whatever you want to call it, and you can see, oh, usually in most niches, and not to say that everybody can, or everybody should serve a more advanced audience, but usually there are shows that are all clustered around serving beginners, and there's a huge gap on anybody serving intermediate to expert.

(11:37): And so they're certainly fewer of those people, but they're willing to charge way more. They usually don't have much content that's targeted at them. And so for somebody who a lot of, who is an expert, who can serve those people, we feel this pull towards the beginners because everybody else is doing it, and it feels easy to create that content. And it takes a little bit more bravery, I think, to say, "Okay, I'm actually going to speak to only people who are at this really advanced level, but I'm really going to be one of two people who is doing it." And then if I'm only competing with one other person, then I can start to say, "Okay, well, this person's doing it in a really... They're almost bringing this engineering mindset to it, so I'm going to bring a bit more creativity and a bit more abstract thought to it, but also serving that audience." And then you compliment each other among that advanced audience, and probably a lot of those people engage with both your shows. And so I think that would be how I would think through that process.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (12:28): It's interesting because as you're saying all of this, that was the process I went through with positioning my show. I looked at a bunch of marketing podcasts, and I swear, if you could read the podcast descriptions, you can get a good idea of how they're positioning themselves. And everybody was like, "Actionable, we're always so actionable with everything." And I was like, "Ooh, maybe I need to be more strategic and thoughtful and help people ask better questions." And then the other thing I was thinking about is this show is for experts. So I doubled down because there's not a lot of people talking to experts who have been in business for two or more years and talking to them about the struggles with marketing and messaging, especially when you're running a business and servicing clients and still having to market. So finding that space, it helped me reposition the show and get clear on the type of content I want to be creating.

Jeremy Enns (13:26): And I think then the next step to that is picking that is actually then you start to really highlight who you're not for as well. And so it's one thing-

Dr. Michelle Mazur (13:34): Oh yeah.

Jeremy Enns (13:34): To say we are for experts and everything, but I think the more... I don't want to say abrasive, but strong, bold language saying, "This is not a show... If you have been in business less than two years, do not listen to this show." And really, because nothing drives experts away faster than thinking that, "Oh, this is actually, there's going to be a bunch of beginners here and it's not actually going to be for me," because that's what most spaces are like. And so I think really taking a strong position within your positioning and translating that into your messaging, and so not just you know, oh, this is a show for experts. It's both pushing back on the people it's not for and also really highlighting who it's for and making sure that that is so clear that not for these people, definitely specifically for these people.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (14:14): Yeah, because I know even in my positioning for this show, I talk about the whole, you just have to be one step ahead of your clients. And I'm like, "That's not who this show is for." The people who listen to the show are a 100 steps ahead of their clients. They're not just 10% more knowledgeable, they're like a 1,000% more knowledgeable. And I think that strong stance of, "This is not for you," and people are terrified of doing that.

Jeremy Enns (14:40): Yes.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (14:41): "Well, what if I lose a potential client?" Be like, if you work with experts who are established, those people you're repelling are not your potential clients. They might be someday, but not right now.

Jeremy Enns (14:52): Yeah. I actually heard a great... I suppose it's not an analogy, it's like an example of this. I read in a newsletter, I don't know what it was last week, but it was talking about essentially this, one of the values of niching down is that you encounter the same situations again and again and again, and this is where you actually drive up your value a lot because when every person comes to you wants the exact same thing, you're able to really master that one thing, and all of a sudden you're the leading person in the world for that. Whereas if you work with 10 different people on 10 different problems, you actually haven't really improved your level of expertise on any one of those, and so you're actually hurting your own earning potential as well as your referability in the future.

(15:30): And I thought, "Ah, that's just such another interesting wrinkle when it comes to niching," is that really, you want to be in a position where you only do one thing and people only come to you for one thing. It's so easy for you because you've done this literally a hundred times. And no matter what kind of variable version of that thing people come to you for, it's like, "Yeah, this is my bread and butter. I could do this in my sleep and I can charge way more for it because I've done this a 100 times where everybody else has only done this three times." And that was another realization for me just recently. It's just like, niching, it feels like there's almost endless benefits to it that you keep realizing as you get further down the rabbit hole. And I thought that that's just another useful reminder for people as well.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (16:11): Hey, rebel, wouldn't it be amazing if people just recognized your expertise on the spot and decided to hire you? Of course it would, but we know business doesn't work that way. Instead, you have to show up and market, and let's face it, marketing has not been your jam and it feels like it doesn't work for your business, and there's a reason for that. In order to market effectively, so you grab attention and lead people to your offer, it takes having one-of-a-kind message and an ability to build the case for why people should hire you. And that's exactly what we'll create in The 3 Word Rebellion messaging intensive.

(16:57): Yes, we will co-create your three-word rebellion, but you'll also create all of the other messaging your business needs to efficiently and effectively show up and market your business, while translating your expertise into a message your clients want to know more about. Interested in that? Then let's chat. Go to, that's the number and book a free consultation with me. I look forward to helping you get your message out in the world so that more people can hire you.

(17:41): All right. So what do you think is the biggest misconception business owners have around marketing their podcast?

Jeremy Enns (17:47): I would say when it comes to marketing their podcasts specifically, I think the whole build it and they will come is still the dominant misconception there. I think the other big misconception, and maybe these two go hand in hand, is that starting a podcast will grow your business necessarily or grow your audience. I think it actually can grow your business, but it will not grow your audience. Podcasting today... In 2016, when I got into podcasting, it certainly was an audience acquisition channel. Today it is more an existing audience nurturing channel.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (18:19): Yes.

Jeremy Enns (18:20): It's like sales enablement almost, moving people from they're aware of you. They're maybe on your email list, maybe they've listened to a few episodes, and turning those people into customers or potential customers at least. I think one of the big shifts you need to make is realigning your expectations around your shows, space it occupies in your larger marketing strategy. And so saying like, "Okay, I'm not going to put any pressure on my podcast to grow my audience because that's just not what it's designed to do. The ecosystem is not set up for that." And so I know if I want to grow my audience, I need to go find that somewhere else. And it's okay if my podcast doesn't do that, and instead, I'm going to make sure that what I'm doing with the podcast is appealing to people who already have some base level understanding of the problem that I'm solving.

(19:02): Maybe they're already generally aware of me just a little bit. They've come across me at some point, and I'm going to do everything in my power to move those people from aware of me and what I offer and give them a lot of nurturing, a lot of attention, help them move further along their journey and get to the point where when my next offer comes around, they're interested, at least they're going to consider taking me up on it. And so I think that's the big one for sure.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (19:23): I agree with that because every once in a while I'll have a client come to me and they're like, "Oh, well, my podcast will grow my audience." And I was like, "No, your podcast is an excellent marketing and sales tool." For me, whenever somebody says to me, "Michelle, I've just binged your show," and they're getting on a sales conversation, I'm like, I know things about them. I know we speak the same language. I know if we're having this conversation, they've pretty much sold themselves already on the process because they've listened to a bunch of episodes of the show and they're getting my viewpoint on messaging and positioning and my unique takes, and so they're usually super ready to work with me. And then it's only about fit, and I think that's the brilliance of a podcast, but then it goes into you have to have the other audience acquisition activities going on.

(20:15): So with that, what do you feel are some of the best ways to actually grow your audience, so the people who know you, so building awareness so that more people listen to your podcast in 2023?

Jeremy Enns (20:27): Well, there are a lot of ways to do it. I think it depends a lot on your circumstances. So if you have a budget, advertising is certainly a way that most big shows advertise pretty heavily. And there's also something to be said for usually advertising when you're small, it often doesn't work as when you don't have your messaging worked out.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (20:44): Oh, yeah.

Jeremy Enns (20:44): Advertising is really hard. It just doesn't work work until you have figured out all your copy and messaging and all that stuff, which often when you're small, you haven't got enough feedback to actually figure it out yet. So a lot of people start and they're like, "Okay, I'm just going to throw money at it," and it doesn't work. Also, I was just talking with somebody who had recently run a masterclass or live workshop on Facebook Advertising for podcasters, and basically when he asked the people in attendance, "Who are you targeting with your ads?" And none of them knew, and if you've ever done any Facebook advertising, you know it is all about you have to be specific about who are you trying to reach if you don't want to be spending a $100 per lead or whatever it is? And so getting to the point where you've figured that stuff out, that's when advertising is going to be a better fit.

(21:29): Leading up to that, I would say just being... I usually think about it in stages. So if you're getting your first 500 listeners or subscribers, I think just being active in one single community where you know there's a large number of people who are good fits for your show, just be an active contributing member there. Talk about your show sparingly, not promotionally, but where relevant in the conversation and say like, "Hey, actually I talked about this. Here are my thoughts on this question that you had that you posted. If you want to know more from minutes 17:35 to 18:54, I talked about it in this episode," and be so specific that they don't have to listen to the whole episode. They're like, "Oh, this is a one-minute commitment of my time. I'm going to get something valuable."

(22:07): And maybe they'll keep listening, but never expect that anybody is going to leave the platform they're on to listen through a 45-minute podcast to get a simple answer to a question in a community. That usually doesn't work, but by doing that, by being active in the community, you'll get a lot of feedback on your ideas around your show. You'll become known as a contributing member of that community. You'll be able to get into conversations with people who either are existing listeners, where you'll start to get some actual engagement with the show, which is something all podcasters want, and you'll also start conversations with the people who would be potential listeners for the show.

(22:39): And so I think when you're starting out, that's the best place to go. Scaling up from there, I'd look at collaborations, podcast guesting, cross promos, things like that to start broadening your reach from there.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (22:49): Yeah, I love that community-based approach because I feel like most people would be like, "Well, be on social media, be on Instagram or Twitter," which you can be, but I love the approach of just finding a vibrant community that you can be a part of and sharing your expertise and then being very specific with how they can get the answer to the question. I feel like that's a very maverick strategy that most people wouldn't be willing to do.

Jeremy Enns (23:19): Yeah, I think so much of marketing, it also comes into sales as well. Marketing and sales are part of this larger whole of obviously business, but I think about a lot about creating content as what's the work you're doing on behalf of your listeners? And so the more work you are willing to do for people, the more likely they are to take that action and to stick with you from the show. And so I think whether that's doing research on their behalf and distilling it down into your podcast episode. So I have a friend who she... Her newsletter is... Her name's Chanel, and it's called Growth in Reverse. And essentially, she breaks down newsletters that have at least I think 50,000 subscribers.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (23:54): Oh, wow.

Jeremy Enns (23:54): And she breaks down their backstory, how did they get there?

Dr. Michelle Mazur (23:56): That's cool.

Jeremy Enns (23:56): And so, she says in the tagline for the newsletter, she's like, "I do 40 hours of research for every issue and you can read it in 15 minutes or 10 minutes." And it's like, "Oh, that's a much better use of my time than doing all that research." And so I think, "Oh, if I subscribe to her newsletter, I'm basically getting hundreds and hundreds of hours of research done for me and that I can just read in 10 minutes a week to learn all the secrets." And it's like, that's a great trade-off. And so I think whether it's shows or whether it's how we promote our shows and actually going out of our way to make it easier to reduce the friction for somebody to have a positive interaction with us and our content, that's going to be more effective.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (24:34): All right Jeremy, are you ready? It's time for The 3 Word Rebellion lightning round of questions.

Jeremy Enns (24:40): Let's do it.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (24:42): All right. This is one of my favorite parts of the show because I don't know how you're going to answer these questions, and I've known you for a while. All right, the first question, what's one thing you're rebelling against?

Jeremy Enns (24:53): I think that the thing I am rebelling against, I don't know if this is partially an internal thing and partially a societal thing, and I think this comes more through in my Creative Wayfinding Newsletter, but it's something around our expectations around time. And this is something that I feel like mainly I write that newsletter as a letter to myself to constantly reassure myself that, "Okay, you're on the right track and none of this happens fast, and that I shouldn't expect success to come in six months or one year or five years."

(25:25): So I think there's something about we are just programmed in the online worlds in particular, we see so many examples of people who seem to come up overnight. Some of them maybe there are some outliers who do just breakthrough immediately, whatever. Most people that do break through, they've been working at it for years. For me, I think that's my biggest rebellion is saying, we as creatives, if we love the work we're doing, we should be excited to do this for the rest of our lives essentially, decades to come. And so what's this end line that we think we're rushing towards when it's like the reward for being successful is getting to do more of what we're already doing. And so maybe we should just create a process that it doesn't matter how long it takes, it's rewarding now and it's going to be rewarding a year from now, and it's going to be rewarding 10 years from now, and doing away with this, "I need to have this thing by this date, or everybody else is having it success much faster than me," or whatever it is.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (26:14): Yeah. I feel like you've answered both questions one and two with the change you'd like to create. Because what I see, I was joking with a friend of mine this morning. I was going to write an email about my $48,000 launch because you know how people always do that. And I was like yeah, step one is be in business for 11 years and do exceptional work for your clients, create frameworks, develop a ton of goodwill, and then in year 11, finally launch your community offer.

Jeremy Enns (26:45): I wrote a Twitter post, I think over the weekend or something like that. I've been rewriting my sales page and it's coming really easy. And I found this, the last number of sales pages that I've written, they've just been like, "Oh, this is easy." And I remember when writing sales copy used to be really hard, and so my tweet was something like, "My simple three-step form or hack for amazing sales copy." And the first was be thoroughly embedded in a community, an active member for five years, talk to hundreds of your potential customers, write 500 blog posts on the topic, write multiple sales pages, and basically your sales copy takes care of itself. Easy.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (27:20): It's easy-peasy after you've done it a million times.

Jeremy Enns (27:23): Yeah.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (27:25): But yeah, I think that's such an interesting change because it's one of the values of my community. It's like we play the long game because that's the only game to play. And so if you're able to keep going, that's amazing. So if everyone acted on this change of playing the long game, taking that longer perspective, what do you think business or even the world would be like?

Jeremy Enns (27:48): I think we'd just be healthier and happier. I think perspective is so interesting when we just think about internally our... And it's such a shift that we can make internally without even thinking about the rest of the world, but I think our perception changes when we think... I had a breakthrough a few years ago when I thought about this idea of when we get onto this path where it's like things click for us and it's like, "Oh, I think I'm doing something unique and I'm not 'successful,' at this yet, but I can see that where this is going, I'm going somewhere where not everybody else is going yet, and I've got this unique blend of things that I'm going to need to figure out how to communicate it. I'm going to need to figure out how to create products and sell it."

(28:31): But all of a sudden, in that moment, all sense of competition faded away. And it was kind of just like, "Oh, I feel like time is on my side now rather than working against me." It's like, "Ah, the more time I put into this, the more I'm going to get out of it, the more success I'm going to get. And I just am on a path now that I can just keep going and that feels great." And yeah, I would like more financial success or whatever at this point, or we always have those things, but we also have to realize that we're always going to be wanting more. Whatever we achieve, the next one's got to be bigger now.

(29:01): And so I think keeping in mind that, okay, we're our own worst enemy here, and if we can constantly be realigning our expectations, I think that just brings a lot more ease into how we treat ourselves, how we treat our expectations around our projects and our podcasts and how we just go through and experience the world, which if everybody did that, I think generally tensions would be lower. I think of almost people in Spain or Italy or Portugal where you and I are North American.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (29:26): Yes.

Jeremy Enns (29:27): I'm planning on moving to either Spain or Portugal in the fall, but one of the things... Having visited those countries really admire is that work is not necessarily the preeminent thing in people's lives, and I think it's hard when you're entrepreneurial, when you're creative, when you need to make your income happen. You don't have social security or anything like that, but I think that's the type of life I think we would all probably have more of, "Okay, things will take their time," and we can enjoy life while we're on the path to getting there.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (29:56): Yeah. I love it. I love it. All right. So as we wrap up, I just want to put a shout-out. You are in the middle of your launch for the Podcast Marketing Academy, and I love the Academy, but do you just want to give us a little blurb about what that's about?

Jeremy Enns (30:13): Yeah. So I have started this now. I think the three-year anniversary is coming up as we're recording this. And so we've been through six cohorts of the program so far. This one coming up will be the seventh, and there's two versions. There's a self-paced community and self-paced course, and then there's also the six-week accelerator version. And so that's the one that's now opening up. The self-paced community is now open for enrollment anytime, but really, the six-week accelerator, this is the one that I have the most fun teaching. I think it's the one that people get the most out of because it's just a ton of marketing, thoughtful, introspective questions that most people haven't really considered before.

(30:49): And so there's certainly an educational piece, but there's a lot of asking and answering the questions that are going to set your marketing up for success. And one of my favorite things is the light bulb going off when people see that, "Oh, I actually had all the answers to this stuff, but I hadn't thought through them in a cohesive way. And now that I know the answer to these questions, they're not like anything that is going to be utterly groundbreaking, but I now have this system." I'm like, "Oh, I have my marketing plan here. I know how to talk about my show. I know what differentiates it from other shows. I know where to find my people and how to get in front of them." And all these things kind of line up and all of a sudden your confidence is just like, "Oh, I can figure this out. I can do this on an ongoing basis."

(31:26): And so that's really what that program's all built around, is in a six-week period, overhauling your marketing strategy and getting you to the point where you just have absolute confidence going forward in marketing and growing your show. And of course, as this is a business audience, then turning those people into clients and customers and income for your business.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (31:44): And I can't say enough, I really love the Podcast Marketing community that you've created. I am an active member, so if you are a podcaster listening to the show, check it out because it really will help you redefine your show if that's what you need, and get more systematic with your marketing. So yeah, I can't say enough good things about the Podcast Marketing Academy. So Jeremy, tell us where we can find you online?

Jeremy Enns (32:10): Yeah, so I would say the best place to find me is on Twitter @iamjeremyenns. I've also got a podcast marketing assessment that you can take, which I believe you will have a link in the show notes for that.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (32:21): Yes.

Jeremy Enns (32:22): And so essentially, it takes two minutes to answer 20 questions, and it will give you a breakdown of where the current strengths and weaknesses in your marketing strategy are so that you can start to address those and improve your results.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (32:33): All right. Yeah, go take that podcast marketing audit. It is incredibly insightful and will tell you exactly what you need to focus on in order to fine-tune your own show and your marketing for your show. So thank you so much, Jeremy, for being on the podcast.

Jeremy Enns (32:50): Yeah, thank you so much for having me, Michelle. This was fun.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (32:53): Thank you so much for listening to this conversation with Jeremy. The most important takeaway for me was around the power of niching. I know some of you're afraid to do it because what if you turn someone off? But that's the point of niching. It lets you get more specific about who you work with, who your show is for, and most importantly, who it's not for. And I love that Jeremy asked you to take a bold stand about who you are not for, because when you know that, it becomes so much easier to create a message, to create content for the people that you most want to work for. And guess what? When you do that, you can actually charge more for the work you do because it is so specific. So even though there are a million podcasts out there, or businesses who do what you do, there's still plenty of room for you to niche down and stand out.

(34:05): If the Rebel Uprising Podcast is helping you claim and communicate your expertise so that your clients can find and hire you, please share the show with a friend. The easiest way to do that is through You can find the show at, and that page will allow anyone you share the show with to subscribe and start listening in their favorite podcast player. That's

(34:35): The Rebel Uprising podcast is a production of Yellow House Media. Our Production Coordinator is Lou Blaser. Our production Assistant is Emily Kilduff. The podcast is edited by Steven Mills. Our Executive Producers are Sean and Tara McMullin. The Rebel Uprising podcast is recorded on the unseated traditional land of the coast Salish Peoples, specifically the first people of Seattle, the Duwamish people, original stewards of the land past and present.

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