Make Marketing Suck Less

Michelle Mazur [00:00:00]

Where are you shooting on yourself when it comes to marketing? With marketing, you have so many different options, and every marketing expert has their own opinion or proven formula for what works. But how do you know what marketing strategy is right for you and when you just need to let something go? So today, I am seeking to answer those questions with my guest, Amanda McKinney. She is a recognized thought leader and a coach on accidental entrepreneurship, author of Why Not You? An accidental entrepreneur's guide to success and the host of the Unapologetic entrepreneur podcast. As a coach, she can help any accidental entrepreneur navigate self doubt so that they can take action and uncover their confidence. Through utilizing her You Promise framework, she shared with us how she approaches doing less but better marketing, reveals one of her biggest marketing flops, and how she pivoted fast to recover. Plus, you'll want to listen all the way to the end because Amanda has two questions that you can ask yourself about your business regularly that will help you make marketing suck less. Enjoy my conversation with Amanda.

Amanda McKinney [00:01:33]: [00:00:00]

Get ready for the Rebel Uprising podcast, the only podcast dedicated to business owners who feel overlooked for their expertise, skills, and experience. Let's claim your expertise and turn your complex ideas into unmistakable messaging that grows your business. I am your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, the author of The Three Word Rebellion and your Rebel Truth Telling guide to building a business that gets noticed.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:03]: Amanda, welcome to the podcast, and we have you on a very special day. Do you want to tell us what's happening in your business right now?

Amanda McKinney [00:02:13]: Oh, my gosh, michelle, thank you so much for having me. And it is so interesting that we have had this on the calendar for I don't even know how long. It's been. A while. And as it turns out, my book is officially published the day we're recording this. I'm having so much of a day today, so thank you for celebrating with me in a special way.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:35]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:35]: So how is the book launch going?

Amanda McKinney [00:02:39]: So we're going to get real real here, really real. And I'm having all the feelings. I am excited. Everyone keeps asking me that today. Oh, my gosh, you must be so excited. And there is a sliver of excitement, for sure, but it's also accompanied with a lot of feelings of this is a long journey. Like you said before we hit record, this is a marathon, not a sprint. And so I'm thinking about that. I'm also thinking, oh, my gosh, I've been working on this for a year. I've been thinking about it, thinking in my head, talking about it to myself, to my friends, to my biz besties. I'm almost sick of talking about it, if that makes sense, and no one's heard about it. So it's all of these things. And then, of course, I'm like, what if people hate it? What if no one buys the book, all of the things that you would think about. And it's been interesting to me how today has been so different for me than any other product in my business, product or service. Right. I have not felt like I have today with any launch of anything else other than this book.

Michelle Mazur [00:03:54]: Interesting. And by the way, everyone, the book is called Why Not You? It's available wherever you buy book.

Amanda McKinney [00:04:01]: Thank you.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:02]: But I understand it because A, there's a lot of planning that goes into a book launch and just a lot of details to get it out. And then it's like when you get to the day, it's all planned, so it just has to do its thing and you just sit there and watch and that feels really out of your control.

Amanda McKinney [00:04:22]: You know what? You just had the perfect words for that. Because it's almost like I think, and maybe I've thought this too, about people, so I'm like putting myself on this. I have thought, oh, when someone launches a book, what a grand day that is. They probably have a party or they have a lot of things happening at their house, like there's people celebrating them. Just so we're clear, none of that is happening today.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:48]: It didn't happen for me either when I launched the Three Word Rebellion. I think my husband and I went out for dinner that night.

Amanda McKinney [00:04:54]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:55]: But other than that, it was like I think I worked with clients that.

Amanda McKinney [00:04:59]: Yeah, I ran some errands already today. Michael, my husband, was asking me, what did you do this morning? And I was like, oh, I did my accounting work because it's the 10th of the month and I do that on the 10th and the 25th, and I'm doing all of these things like a normal day. And in my mind, I guess I thought it was going to be a different day.

Michelle Mazur [00:05:21]: Yeah, I know. Launching a book is a very surreal experience because it's like the beginning of the marketing and you have to trust what you have set up and that is going to work for you.

Amanda McKinney [00:05:36]: Yes, it really is, because we as people who think about the marketing ahead of time, it's like so much is done ahead of time to save yourself in the time of the actual launch, which is fantastic. But there comes this moment of like, I feel like I should be doing something right now instead of going to the grocery store.

Michelle Mazur [00:05:59]: Yes, well, and speaking of all of the shoulds, thank you for giving me that perfect segue. One of the things I wanted to chat with you about, because you and I have so much synergy around how we approach marketing and how we help our clients approach marketing, what are the most common ways you see people over complicating marketing and how are they shooting on themselves?

Amanda McKinney [00:06:29]: Yes. This is such a big one, and we all do it so as everyone has just heard me talking about what should be happening on my book launch day right. I had all these things in my mind about what should be happening. It's because we're comparing ourselves to other people and what we think is happening, not even probably reality of what's happening. Like, I'm looking at all these people who end up on the New York Times bestseller list. That's not realistic for Amanda today, and that's okay. But if I got into that comparison trap, I could feel like a failure today in which I don't, by the way, I want to be really clear, but I could easily fall into that should trap very quickly through comparison.

Michelle Mazur [00:07:17]: Yeah. Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:07:19]: And I feel like social media is the perfect environment for that comparison. What do you think?

Amanda McKinney [00:07:26]: Yeah, I do. I have a love hate relationship with social. I think social can be so beautiful because if I think about how I've connected with so many different people, instagram is a big player in that. Some of my big my best friends in this entrepreneurial space, we connected on Instagram. And so I believe that we can use social media in a beautiful way. So I don't hate on it all the time, but oh, my gosh, it is the number one thing of how we can end up comparing ourselves. And so we have to I tell my clients all the time and myself of like, if you find yourself envious or almost like, why does she have that? Why does he have that? Those types of feelings coming up, unfollow that person. You can always follow them again once you get through that season. Same thing with an email list. Get off their email list, but come back later. It doesn't mean that person is bad. It just means something's going on with what they're sharing that you are having a problem with in that moment.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:33]: Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:34]: I mean, I often tell this story. I had a whole thing about Donald Miller, the building, the story brand guide guy, because I was like, oh, well, my messaging work can't exist because Donald Miller exists. And that must mean that I'm not very good because he exists. And it's like, oh, yeah, I had to unsubscribe from everything he was doing and just kind of shut myself off so that I could work on my own mindset and stop being like, oh, I should be like Donald Miller, because I should not be like Donald Miller.

Michelle Mazur [00:09:07]: Right.

Michelle Mazur [00:09:07]: He and I are very different human beings.

Amanda McKinney [00:09:10]: Right. And you wouldn't have what you have if you were trying to emulate what he did or was doing at that time. And so it's such a slippery slope. I'm glad you caught it.

Michelle Mazur [00:09:22]: Oh, yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:09:23]: Because it was screwing with my head for a very long time. And the other interesting thing I've been seeing, because I don't know if you've been on threads yet it's the new Instagram.

Amanda McKinney [00:09:35]: I did sign up very quickly because I was like, I got to get my name. That was really the biggest thing is I was like, I want to make sure I get my name. And then I was like, oh, my gosh, this thing is so easy. They made it really easy to go over, and so far it's been easy and fun. But it's so early. It's so early.

Michelle Mazur [00:09:55]: I know. The one thing I found really interesting is there are these social media experts who are like, hey, do you all want to know about how the strategy to use threads for your business? And people are like, no.

Amanda McKinney [00:10:10]: Yes. I saw that. I think we're looking at the same thread. Like, pun intended there. I was pretty amazed and excited about that because I love and I think it's so refreshing, at least for the time being, who knows how long it's going to last, that it's just almost like fluid thought that you can put on threads. And it's just this conversation. And I'm excited about like, I've noticed what I'm sharing on threads versus what I'm sharing on Instagram. And it is different. It's more just like top of mind stuff. And people get to know the inner workings of Amanda's brain versus Instagram that's more not that everything is curated, but it's at least thought out before of like, oh, I'm going to talk about the podcast episode.

Michelle Mazur [00:10:58]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:10:59]: And it's like, you're spending all this time in Canva making images and that kind of thing, and yeah, it's nice to be I call it chaos strategy. It's nice to be yourself. And it's made me realize how much I was contorting myself to be in these social media best practices of, like, you've got to have a hook, have.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:25]: A call to action that tells people.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:27]: To share your stuff. And I'm realizing I'm like, wait, none.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:32]: Of that has ever worked for me.

Amanda McKinney [00:11:35]: Right? So why do I keep doing it?

Michelle Mazur [00:11:37]: Yeah, but it's just been mind blowing all the different ways I have been shooting on myself.

Amanda McKinney [00:11:45]: And it's so easy to do. One thing I really love that we're talking about is we're talking about this as though not even as though we're talking about it in real life. I'm not perfect and you're not perfect. I think so many people hear something on a podcast, again, I'm guilty of this, and think, oh, that person's got to figure it out. No, we all fall into this. We just have to recognize, like you did with Donald Miller and following his stuff and realizing something is off here. I need to hit the pause button.

Michelle Mazur [00:12:21]: Yeah. Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:12:23]: And sometimes you just like, you don't realize how you're outsourcing your own agency and your own self trust to these supposed experts who are just, I think in some ways doing what works for them. But it's always easier to build a social media following around the platform that you're on right instagram experts have huge followings because they're Instagram experts, and we think we need their help, so we follow them.

Amanda McKinney [00:12:56]: All right. Oh, gosh, that makes a lot of sense. And I love how right now, no one is a threads expert. If someone tells you they're a threads expert, like, oh, they're trying red flag number one. Get on out of there, friend.

Michelle Mazur [00:13:12]: Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:13:13]: Well, in thinking about threads, one of the things I've been telling my clients, it's like, you don't necessarily have to be on there. And in this world, we feel like we should be everywhere. We should be on all the platforms doing all the things. And I'm curious, what are your best practices when you're thinking about doing less but better with your marketing?

Amanda McKinney [00:13:39]: I love that phrase, by the way. Less but better. First of all, let's all remember that. Just write that on a Post It note.

Michelle Mazur [00:13:47]: I know. Hat tip to Greg McGowan in the book Essentialism because he talks about here.

Amanda McKinney [00:13:54]: Yes, I know people can't see this. I'm pointing at it on my shelf. I read that book every year because it is such a great reminder, and I need it to be like, I have to be reminded of that every single year to focus, because we want to do a lot of things, so there's just confirmation there for everyone listening. It's hard for us all to do this. It's not an easy thing. So going back to your question, doing less but better is really hard. And I think the first part of it is we have to remember that we don't have to be everywhere, which is a really difficult thing, especially when we feel like we should be everywhere, right? Like we're seeing different people. Like today, we're talking about threads. Someone's like, oh, crap, I've got to sign up for another platform. I know there was someone that listened, right, and earned them. Here's the thing. First of all, you don't have to be everywhere. It's actually better to saturate one market than it is to be mediocre in a lot. So that's just a big deal. But I also think we should give ourselves the flexibility to play around. So when you brought up threads, I said, yeah, I got it. I wanted my name. I wanted to secure my name, because we've all dealt with that before, most likely gone to a platform and are like, crap, I can't get my name because someone arts already has it. It's a pain in the butt. So I just sign up for these things in case I want to use them down the road. I'm not committing to a marriage with threads at this point. I'm just signing up and getting my name and kind of moving forward. And then the way in which we can do less but better is to let's say you want to test threads for a little bit, and you look at it and you're already on Instagram and maybe you're on all of them because you feel like you need to be everywhere. Just look at the data. We tend to make emotional decisions based on that should feeling. I'm shooting all over myself, so I feel like I need to be everywhere. The data will not lie. Our emotions will. So look at the data and see what's actually bringing people to your website if that's your metric you're looking at, or bringing people to your email list, or bringing people to your client roster, whatever the data is telling you, double down on what's working and hang tight there. Just let the other things go.

Michelle Mazur [00:16:24]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:16:25]: I mean, why do you think people are so afraid to look at the data?

Amanda McKinney [00:16:33]: I have some guesses. I think there's people that are scared of looking at data. Like the numbers freak them out. A spreadsheet freaks them out because usually I don't know about you, but I work with someone and they'll tell me very quickly, I'm not a spreadsheet person, I'm not a data person. They'll really lead with that pretty quickly. That person is really just uncomfortable with that, the numbers, the technology. And that's a real thing. I'm not trying to make light of it. It's just that's where that person is, then there's other people that are totally okay looking at a spreadsheet or a data. If it's good, they're scared that the data is bad.

Michelle Mazur [00:17:16]: No, that is very true. It's like the person who doesn't want to look at their bank balance.

Amanda McKinney [00:17:19]: Yes, absolutely. They'd be fine if there were millions of dollars in there looking at that bank balance, but if there's negative $200, they're not comfortable with the data. But the reality is we need to see the data. And I say this as much for myself as anyone else. We all get into that point of like, I know it's not going to look good, so I really don't want to look at it today, but if we can get in the routine of actually whatever that routine is for someone, it could be monthly, it could be quarterly, could be yearly. I'm not sure what data point we'd want to look at, but if you get into the routine of looking at it, it becomes part of the routine, and then you can have a checkpoint of, okay, this is working. I think quarterly is a really good checkpoint. So if you commit to using Instagram, commit for 90 days, then look at it and see if it worked.

Michelle Mazur [00:18:16]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:18:19]: Know what you're going to be measuring beforehand, so then it's not a surprise. Well, and I just think that's one of the things it's like normalizing failure and things that don't work and learning from them are something we don't talk about in the industry. Everything is like hockey stick, rope, and oh my gosh, I got a million followers yesterday.

Amanda McKinney [00:18:47]: Right.

Michelle Mazur [00:18:48]: So with that spirit in mind, can you tell us about one of your marketing flops and what you learned from it.

Amanda McKinney [00:18:55]: Which one do I choose? Michelle I don't even know. My mind is very much on my book right now. So there was a massive flop with the pre sale of my book and specifically with the marketing. And I've shared this story. I believe I shared it on the podcast. Maybe I didn't. I've definitely shared it with some of my clients and people I've worked with because it was quite an eye opening experience. So I presold my book in an interesting way. I went through a different, like, kind of a hybrid publishing model. And so the presale of my book was one month long and it was in December, so we're recording in July. And so it was six months before the book is actually coming out that I was just not aware of the complication that that was going to open with how a presale went. So I went into this and I thought, I know my audience. They love the community feel. I want them to feel very included in this because if someone preorders my book, they're going to learn. They're going to be with me for six months. I'm going to keep them involved with the podcast. Like, I'm going to have a private podcast feed. I really wanted them to feel very, very special. So I really leaned into the message, let's finish this book together. And my heart was in the right place. The marketing message flopped massively. It was terrible. Michelle it was so bad. Within 48 hours, I was like, oh my gosh, this is a massive problem. Because not only were sales really, really low compared to what I thought was going to happen, I was getting questions from people that said, am I going to have to edit the book, Amanda? Am I going to have to help you write it? And I was like, oh my gosh, I've made a huge mistake. So within 24 hours, I revamped the entire page on my website. I revamped everything. Got a new podcast episode out, like, really changed things. All the marketing messaging was, pre order your book, pre order your copy. Why I didn't go with that from the beginning, not sure. I tried to get all kinds of fancy and clever and all of the things that I got in my head with and so it went from a massive flop to it turned around very quickly. So the lesson is you can change your messaging. So that's the lesson.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:31]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:31]: You can tweak it at any time and you can tweak it quickly.

Amanda McKinney [00:21:35]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:36]: And I understand that intention of because you and I are both community oriented. It's like, we're in this together. I'm doing this with you. And then they're like, wait, am I a beta reader?

Amanda McKinney [00:21:49]: What am I signing on for? Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:53]: And you're like, oh, no, just preorder.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:55]: The book right here's.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:56]: The reasons why you should preorder the.

Amanda McKinney [00:21:58]: Yeah, I could have kept it so much easier and simple. But I think all of that to say I learned a great lesson in that. And I also think it's important to go with your gut, which my gut was telling me that that's what I wanted to do. I was in that community message. But the thing is that had I just kind of fallen over and failed and been like, oh want it didn't work, sales would have been low. I wouldn't have learned anything. But because I was like, hold on. Something's off. What's going on? These people are confused. Oh, I can just change the messaging. And that 24 hours was stressful. To get everything changed that I had in motion for a month. But because I put that effort in, things turned around. And so I think that is really the biggest thing of, like, we have to be willing to ask, oh, shoot. What did I do wrong?

Michelle Mazur [00:22:57]: Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:58]: And not look at those questions that you were getting as like because I think sometimes people take it as, like, a personal attack. Oh, they just don't get it right. And it's like, yeah, they just don't.

Amanda McKinney [00:23:11]: Get it because I confuse them. And I love what you just said. And I think that maybe 2017 version of Amanda, who had just started her business, maybe would have taken it a little more personally. But 2022 version was like, oh, shoot. Something's wrong. What can I do to fix this? And pivoted way quicker and didn't take it as personally as I could have. So there is that, too.

Michelle Mazur [00:23:39]: Yeah, because I think anytime when you're in that launch cycle or yeah. You can just pivot on a dime. And I know people are like, well, people will notice.

Michelle Mazur [00:23:50]: And I'm like, no, nobody notices.

Amanda McKinney [00:23:51]: Right. Had I not said anything, no one would have even noticed because they didn't. Like, only the people that were confused maybe would have noticed, but would have been like, oh, she cleared it up.

Michelle Mazur [00:24:03]: Yeah.

Amanda McKinney [00:24:04]: Good for her. Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:24:08]: All right, I have one final question for you that I am asking everyone as I am starting to change the podcast name. So what is one thing that you're.

Michelle Mazur [00:24:19]: Doing to make marketing suck less?

Amanda McKinney [00:24:23]: Another good phrase. I'm loving this. Making marketing suck less. I truly believe, and you and I really connected on this, that marketing does not have to suck. There's a lot of things in our business that are really hard. I don't think marketing is easy, but I don't think it has to suck. And one of the things that's really been helpful for me in all areas of my business, including marketing, is asking myself two different questions. One is what in my business is bringing me joy. And the other is what in my business is bringing me stress. Now, to be clear, there's always going to be both. I don't think there's a magical business that is not stressful. Ever. So I'm not saying that you can make these things go away and only do the joyful things, but by asking those two questions on a regular basis, I can figure out, this is what I really like doing and this is what I don't like doing. And that goes for marketing. So let's say I enjoy threads. Maybe I enjoy threads right now, right? And I am like, you know what? I'm going to keep doing that because it's really fun and bringing me joy. What's bringing me stress? Maybe it's TikTok. And it's like, well, I'm going to let that go.

Michelle Mazur [00:25:39]: Yes, it's interesting to me because there's just certain things that I just feel like a full body no to. And when TikTok came out, I was just like, Nope, the reels came out and I was like, Nope.

Amanda McKinney [00:25:53]: And I love that when we can have those experiences of a full yes, a full no. And what a beautiful experience it is. But the reality is there's so much more in the middle of like, maybe it's okay. I don't know. Maybe I just don't know how to do it yet. I should give it a try. I want to give it a try. I think there's a lot more gray, but when we have those moments of a hell yes or a hell no, like, lean into those.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:20]: Yeah. And it's also that sunk cost fallacy. Like, I see people sticking with marketing strategies that are not bringing them joy.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:29]: That are stressing them out, but they're.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:31]: Like, I've been doing Instagram for five years, so I should keep doing it. And I'm like, well, if it's not actually getting you results and you hate it, then no, probably not.

Amanda McKinney [00:26:45]: Yeah. I think you brought up great questions, like, do you enjoy this? Do you hate it? Right? Is it bringing you results? Because there's a lot of combinations that could be happening there. It could be bringing you joy and not bringing you results. And then it's like, well, you could choose to keep doing it because you're having fun, or it could be stressing you out and not bringing you results. And you're like, oh, I could let that go. And you feel free, right? Like, there's so much beauty in asking these questions and figuring it out. And there will be things, there will be tactics. Like, for example, I'm sure you feel the same about this. Email marketing might suck for you, dear listener. It's important.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:28]: It's really important.

Amanda McKinney [00:27:29]: Yes, please fight in in the in those moments where it is important and it sucks for you. Like, find a system to help you, meaning find a process that you can create that makes it easier for you outsource when you can. There's a lot of options there, but there are some things that are important, and email marketing is one of them.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:54]: Yeah, that's the one. Non negotiable. Either that or they have to have a really great CRM if they are the kind of business that only needs like a handful of clients. You need a CRM or email marketing.

Amanda McKinney [00:28:09]: Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:09]: You have to have those in your business, one or the other.

Amanda McKinney [00:28:12]: Yes, I fully agree with this.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:15]: I know. Even if you hate it, it's very important.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:17]: I know.

Amanda McKinney [00:28:17]: It's just one of those things. It's kind of like accounting in our business. Right. Some people might love that. That's something I had to learn to love. I didn't love it at the beginning, but I found a process in a system that it's actually way easier for me now. And I love knowing the numbers. So I went from this sucks to oh, it's not so bad anymore.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:38]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:38]: And that's how people should I mean, I can never promise that people are going to love marketing, but you might be able to like it incrementally more. I think that's the secret.

Amanda McKinney [00:28:49]: I agree. And when we can find what is exciting for us, that's when we can do even a little like you said, even just a tiny bit of like, oh, that actually wasn't so bad.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:01]: Yeah, exactly.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:03]: So, Amanda, tell everyone where they can find you and importantly, where they can purchase your book.

Amanda McKinney [00:29:10]: Oh, my gosh. Thank you so much. Well, my website is Amandamckinney.com, so everything can be found there. I also have a podcast that your episode is going to be released soon. So I don't remember the date right this second, but it will be out soon once this is out. So that's exciting. The podcast name is The Unapologetic Entrepreneur and you can buy the book wherever books are sold. So, Amazon Bookshop.org, Barnes and Noble. All those places. And you can also get it through the library, which I think is so cool. It's in the library system. You'll probably have to go to your local library and request it, but it'll be there, which I think is really a neat thing.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:55]: That is awesome. Well, thank you so much, Amanda, for coming on the podcast and sharing your brilliance with us. I am just so grateful that you were here.

Amanda McKinney [00:30:07]: Oh, thank you, Michelle, for having me.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:09]: There are three big things that I want you to take away from this conversation with Amanda. The first is comparison makes you feel like you should be doing more. You can look around at what everybody else is doing in your industry and somehow it makes you feel inadequate. So you have to trust yourself and realize that you are doing enough. The second takeaway, don't be afraid to look at your numbers because the data, your numbers will let you know what's working and what's not. And even though I know it's uncomfortable, it's important to do because it's going to save you so much time and energy chasing marketing tactics that aren't right for your audience or your business. The final takeaway is that we all have marketing flops. I know what it looks like. In the online space that everything is constant growth and works really well. But failure happens. That's how we learn. It's how we become better at marketing, it's how we evolve our messaging, and it's always possible to recover. And the best part is, no one's really paying attention to when our marketing doesn't work. So until next time, here's to making marketing suck less for your business. So it is far simpler and maybe incrementally more enjoyable.

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