Make Marketing Suck Less

Michelle Mazur [00:00:00]: If you scroll through social media, there are a heck of a lot of marketing experts all screaming at you about how they have ‘The Way’, the ‘Proven Formula’ that will help you book more business overnight. Much of that advice is conflicting, and it also leaves you feeling like you need to be everywhere on all the platforms formed to grow your business. And that's tough, especially as a solo business owner who is juggling so much client delivery, sales, on top of all the marketing you should be doing.

In this episode of the pod, we are doing something a little bit different. I'm sharing with you a round table I facilitated that brought together 3 experts, Diann Wingert, Pauline Wiles, and Elise Enriquez, to discuss their challenges around overmarketing, and how they are learning to do less marketing, but do it better. Tune in to identify where you're overdoing it when it comes to marketing and how to right-size your own marketing strategy.

Because one of the insights it's that I had from this discussion, is that overmarketing can also lead to overgiving, and that has impacts on your business. We'll also cover the difference between being a creator versus being a business owner and how that impacts your approach as well.

Whether you need help letting go of certain tactics or just want to dial in your own strategy, this discussion provides valuable insights for you, the solo business owner, looking to streamline your efforts.

So let's dive in.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:12]: Welcome to Make Marketing Suck Less. The podcast that knows marketing is freaking hard, especially when you're a solo business owner trying to juggle it all. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, author of the 3 Word Rebellion and founder of the Expert Up Club. Forget the latest marketing fads and tactics promising social media stardom. I'm here with research-backed strategies to help you clarify your message and get twice as effective with your marketing. And while I can't promise you'll ever love marketing, I'm here. to make you hate it a tiny bit less.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:54]: Welcome to the over-marketing roundtable. I am really excited to have this discussion today because the overmarketing, undermarketing dichotomy is something that I've noticed with myself and with my own clients throughout the years that we tend to be in either 1 or 2 camps. And before I started recording, Diann and I were talking about the fact that we probably swing from one extreme to the other at different times in our business.

Michelle Mazur [00:03:27]: So with overmarketing, it is I'm gonna call it a compulsion to try to do all the marketing things. And part of it is there are so many different ways of marketing things. And part of it is there are so many different ways to market your business. There are so many different people telling you, like, this is the way to grow your audience or be on TikTok because you'll have massive growth and there's not a lot of people helping you discern, like, what is the right way to market our businesses.

And I think when we start to over-market and try to do all the things, it can have some negative consequences on our own personal well-being and also on the business. And I also wanted to have this conversation to help people figure out, like, how do I discern, like, what is the right marketing strategy for me?

Who’s voices should I actually be listening to when it comes to marketing my business?

So I decided to bring together 3 experts who are all members of the Expert Up Club, And we're just going to have a conversation around what overmarketing look like, why do we do it, and how do we right-size our marketing.

So with that, I'm going to first ask Diann, Pauline, and Elise to introduce themselves, to take a moment and do that. In the chat, I would love to hear from you, like, who you are, what your business is, and who you serve. So, Diann, I will let you take it away.

Diann Wingert [00:05:15]: I don't I don't know where I'm taking it, but I'll I'll take it. Okay. I'm Diann Wingers. I, like to refer to myself as a recovering psychotherapist turned business strategist and coach. I work with ambitious outliers. I'm also the host of the Driven Woman Entrepreneur podcast and creator of The Boss Up Breakthrough. And, yes, I'm a card-carrying, Persistent compulsive over-marketer, and you're gonna hear all the juicy details, but that's enough for now.

Michelle Mazur [00:05:42]: Thank you, Diann. Pauline.

Pauline Wiles [00:05:44]: Hello, everyone. I'm Pauline Wiles. I provide website strategy and website design so that when your ideal client checks you out online, Your business looks amazing, and they are excited to work with you. And, yes, hand up here, another, eager overmarketer.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:05]: Excellent. Excellent. And last but not least, Elise, tell us

a little bit about who you are.

Elise Enriquez [00:06:10]: Hello. My name is Elise Henriquez. I'm a productivity coach, And I work with women who run small businesses and pretty much everything else in their lives, and I help them figure out how to make progress on what matters most to them, while still enjoying the journey along the way.

So I'm I'm the productivity dork for sure. I also have the podcast, The Productivity Shift, And, yes. Yes. Over over-marketed. I'm working on it. I'm recovering,

I'm recovering. Thanks to Michelle.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:36]: Recovering over marketer.

Elise Enriquez [00:06:39]: Thanks to you Michelle, I have to say.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:42]: I also am a recovering overmarketer. So the first question I have for our panelists, and I would love for people who are listening to this to reflect on this as well, and you can tell us what you're thinking in your chat in the chat. Like, My first question for you is, how does over-marketing show up for you? Like, what are you doing? What are you thinking? What are you feeling?

Elise Enriquez [00:07:11]: I'm happy to start. Okay.

Michelle Mazur [00:07:13]: Yes. Elise.

Elise Enriquez [00:07:14]: Just you even saying it, I feel stress. It feels like, you know, people talk about FOMO, And I am I'm definitely can be a FOMO person. And I think with marketing when I see other people doing really creative things on all these different platforms or even a lot of creative things even on the same platform or the same thing.

It's like, oh, I should be doing that. Like, they're doing well with that. I should be doing that. And it feels like this constant FOMO, this constant, like, that I'm missing out on an opportunity, and it's ridiculously stressful to me. Like, to just think of, like, what am I not doing? What am I doing wrong? How could I be doing it better? It's like a constant FOMO and constant second-guessing of how I'm spending my very precious time.

Like, Our time is precious, and, like, I don't wanna spend it all on marketing. So that's that's what it feels like to me.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:06]: Alright. Diann?

Diann Wingert [00:08:09]: Well, at the risk of this sounding like a 12-step reading, I think that, I think that even though I am intelligent and educated, I'm also impulsive and gullible. So when I see a new platform, a new piece of technology come out that promises to take 1 piece of content and repurpose it for you so that it can be distributed on all the platforms, I would literally think I was a dumb-dumb not to go for that.

And, unfortunately, there are so many of these platforms proliferating that once I buy a subscription, of course, I feel compelled to use it. And next thing you know, I'm literally trying to be everywhere all the time, but I don't even go in those places anyway, so I'm not engaging. And then I'm guilty of what has been called ‘Spray and Pray’ or the old Spaghetti stick, you know, thing. And I'm like, why am I trying to put my stuff out in all of these places when I don't hang out there? I don't even know what this platform is for, and I have zero clue whether the people that I wanna connect with would even be here. So it's there's the overwhelm and the stress that Elise spoke of, but for me, there's also a kind of shame and stupidity. It's like, I feel like I need to do this, but I don't I can't justify why. And yet the decision to stop doing it also feels really hard to make.

Elise Enriquez [00:09:38]: It sounds a lot like the underlying, like, motivations, like, Michelle, for you guys to do the Dupe podcast. Right? Because it's, like, there are there are people out there. We're being duped constantly about marketing, and I feel like that's what you're kinda getting at, Diann.

diann Wingert [00:09:53]: I'm hooked, reeled in, and flopping around in just about everybody's boat. And even though I know it's happening, I'm still doing it.

Michelle Mazur [00:10:01]: Yeah. I mean, Alright. I'm gonna let Pauline go, and then I'm gonna give you a couple of observations from this. How about you, Pauline? How does over-marketing show up for you?

Pauline Wiles [00:10:10]: YWell, the feeling, Elise said stress. I would also say, frazzled, overwhelmed. Yeah. It shows up for me because I actually quite enjoy marketing. So I'm curious and eager to try various and it doesn't feel onerous for me to take on some new marketing idea. But obviously, it's not sustainable because Then when work does come in, we feel like we're on the hook and we've started these things.

Yeah. There's that whole ‘spray and pray’ that you're not through. So even though the temptation is there and it seems kind of fun and enjoyable, the reality is that I can't then keep the energy going.

Michelle Mazur [00:10:56]: What I'm finding interesting from this, it's just the FOMO because we see people and we're like, oh my gosh, “they have their marketing altogether.”

But in some ways, we don't actually know if that's working for them. Right? Like, we see them and it's like, oh, it looks great or they get all this they have a huge audience and you're like, oh, it must be working, but is it really? And I feel like that's one of the things that we're not taught to assess with marketing, like, how do you know if it's actually working for you?

Because we just make these assumptions. So I found I find that really interesting. And Dr. Tina said, “I can't stand for the whole thing, but I feel like I'm wasting a lot of time doing the wrong things and it's stressful for it not to work.”

And I and I think so I'm just curious to hear from you. Like, what's one thing that you tried with your marketing that you wish you didn't

Or if you could go back in time and make a different decision.

Diann Wingert [00:12:04]: TikTok. Here's the thing. I freaking love TikTok As a consumer, and I have enough self-awareness to realize I have to put a time limit on it, or the rest of my natural life will disappear. But I started a TikTok channel for repurposing my own content, and it took all the enjoyment out of TikTok for me. Because each platform has its own culture, and each platform has its own learning curve. And I was literally spending so much time trying to figure out how to do TikTok the right way that it ruined the experience of being on TikTok for me, so I finally closed my channel down. And now I just lurk and watch other people's stuff, and I enjoy it all over again.

Michelle Mazur [00:12:55]: TikTok, I swear, I have to talk people off the edge with TikTok all the time. Like, I'm working with a client and she works with CEOs, like B2B CEOs, and she's like, I wanna start a TikTok channel. And I'm like, no. Your people aren't there. I'm like, if you wanna start a TikTok Channel because you want to enjoy creating on that channel and it has nothing to do with your business, you can do that.

Like, TikTok can just be a fun hobby that you do, but don't think it's going to be the best place to market because, Like, your people aren't there. CEOs of, like, small businesses or medium sized businesses are not on TikTok looking for professional small development.

Diann Wingert [00:13:37]: But, Michelle, don't you think that's really the thing? Because they may be on TikTok, but they're not there for that. Like, it's kinda like seeing your dentist in a bathing suit at the beach. You're like, no. Like, yeah, they're out they're out of context. You know? I mean, like, I don't want to see even if my audience is there, they probably aren't there to see me doing my business marketing stuff. So

Elise Enriquez [00:14:04]: Yeah. It's kinda like read the room. Right? You're like, read the room. I'm here for some enjoyment.

Yeah. True.

Elise Enriquez [00:14:11]: I think I think for I'm so glad. I was, like, trying to think, like, what would it be? What would it be? So I'm glad that you mentioned, like, a specific platform, Diann, because for me, a little bit of it's, like, the specific platform, but it was like creating a Facebook group. Because back in the day, it was like everybody had to create a Facebook group. You try only people in the Facebook group when you try and it still exists. I haven't shut it down, you guys. So let this be let let this be the stake in the ground.

Diann Wingert [00:14:37]: To release this accountability. I had to put mine last year too. Yep.

Elise Enriquez [00:14:40]: Elise is shutting down the Everyday Matters Facebook group. I haven't posted on there forever, I used to have all these, like, automated put like, I had put so much work in, like, all these awesome posts and all this awesome stuff, and nothing came out of it. I didn't know what I was doing. I just was told to do a Facebook group. And so then it just became this big representation of guilt and failure instead of, like it didn't even feel like an experiment. It just felt shitty. Or I'm sorry. It just felt really bad.

Okay. I was like, I think we're in a safe place here. Yeah. And so for me, yeah, I was having that Facebook group. And then what's so funny is a client of mine, I just worked with her to get her Oh gosh. There's the little reactions on Zoom. I just worked with her to get hers, to have her shout hers down. I'm like, wait.

I'm being such a hypocrite right now. Like, I like, why am I not doing the same? So by end of year, it's gone because I am not carrying that forward into 2024.

Diann Wingert [00:15:34]: How about the end of the week?

Elise Enriquez [00:15:37]: Well, There's reasons for that, but, yes, soon. Soon. I promise. I promise.

Diann Wingert [00:15:41]: But you know what? Elise is bringing up another really important point because sometimes it's not just because you're impulsive AF like me, but it's that you were part of a group or you paid a coach or you were part of a program, and you wanted the result that they promised, and they told you, you need to do reels 3 times a week, or you need to have a Facebook group or you need to long form, short form, like, whatever. And you didn't want to, you wanted to do everything that you were told to do because we all believe if we don't follow the directions, we're not gonna get the desired outome. Right?

I mean, we've all been conditioned to be good girls and follow the rules. Right? So if I don't follow the rules, Is that the reason why I'm not winning? You know? We don't know.

Pauline Wiles [00:16:36]: And it's very hard not to follow up on advice that you've paid to receive.

Diann Wingert [00:16:41]: Yes. Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:16:44]: Yeah. That's why, like, I approach my work as, like, I am marketing agnostic. I really believe that any marketing strategy, any tactic can work if you have your message dialed in and you actually want to do it.

Like, you know, if somebody comes to me and they're like, I hate Instagram, I'm like, then don't be on Instagram. There's a million other ways to, like, build your brand awareness and grow your audience. So, I don't wanna let Pauline off the hook. Like, what's a marketing thing you tried that you wish you didn't?

Pauline Wiles [00:17:25]: Well, before I share that, Michelle, that angle of being marketing agnostic. No. I've forgotten that, so I'll share the thing that you've been to me to share. Okay. So I'll share a real-life tactic.

So one thing that I've done to market my business, and with hindsight, I wished I hadn't, I've gotten on planes and traveled to conferences to deliver workshops on website and website design with the hope that that would generate business for me.

And that is a very big gamble with time and energy. And, once or twice it pays off, but sometimes that feels like something I wish I could wind the clock back on.

Michelle Mazur [00:18:08]: Yeah. Yeah.

Elise Enriquez [00:18:09]: I even local events. Like, even not having to fly somewhere and get a hotel, like, I wish I I wish the ExpertUp club existed sooner. I wish I would've worked with Michelle sooner. Because had I had my messaging in place for all of those things that I said yes to in terms of speaking engagements and stuff, which I don't even like doing speaking engagements. Right? But even if I, at least, woulda had my messaging in place for those, it would have been so much more helpful to my business, so much more helpful.

So, yeah, it does seem like, Yes. Extra painful when there's additional expense and even just having to drive somewhere.

Diann Wingert [00:18:47]: Having to put on pants. Come on. To put on pants?

Elise Enriquez [00:18:51]: I mean, I am wearing actual jeans right now, not yoga pants, but still I am wearing slippers. Am wearing slippers. So having to put on actual shoes, these days, I'm like, having to put on shoes and go somewhere, it better be freaking worth it. And you can't it can't be when your messaging isn't lined up. Like, that's, like, how which I hated networking. I hated going and being at networking groups Yes. It never felt like it paid off, but I think it was because I was like, I didn't really know what to say. I didn't really know what to say.

Michelle Mazur [00:19:25]: Yeah. Yeah.

Like, a couple of observations. Like, I too had a Facebook group, like, back in the day that hung over me like an albatross. And how I shut it down is, like, one day, I was just like, I am done wasting my energy thinking about this, and I just closed it.

There was no post that I was closing it. It didn't serve a business purpose, like, I didn't know how to use it in my business effectively. It was hard to get engagement. I'm like, why am I stressing out about this thing that I created that actually isn't really doing anything for my business? And I do think it's that deciding not to do something is so hard because there's always a part of you like, well, but what if, Like, what if I should do something with this? Or, like, what if I need it in the future? And I'm like, oh.

Diann Wingert [00:20:26]: But you know what? Can we talk about a couple of other nuances about this, like sunk cost fallacy

And inertia. Because a body at rest remains at rest, but a body in motion remains in motion. And if you are accustomed to doing your you got your Trello board. You got your VA. You're doing your post in your stupid Facebook group. It's almost like you can't stop because you're, like, doing it, and also the sunk cost fallacy. You know, the hardest thing for me about shutting down the Facebook group was having to face myself and realize, D you put 3 years of wasted energy, focus, time, attention, and dollars into this freaking sinkhole because you didn't want to face it sooner and make a decision that you weren't a 100% certain about. It's like, Oh my god.

Of all the decisions we have to learn to make in business, if I could change one thing, I would make decisions faster, especially about what to let go of.

Elise Enriquez [00:21:36]: Well, and I think too, Diann, what you're getting at is, Michelle, you hinted at this sooner or earlier too is that, It's hard to make the decision when you don't know what the data is you should be looking at. Like, how do I know? Like, I just set up a Facebook group because everybody was setting up a Facebook group, and that seems like the thing I should do, but how do I know I'm winning at that?

How do I know it's beneficial to me? What are my measurements? Right?

And if I'm not doing that, then it makes it really hard. Like, I could like, is it just based on the fact that people commented? Is it based on the size of the group? Is that growing my list, are those people responsive on my list? You know?

It's like there was no criteria, except that after a while, it just felt bad. Right? Which is fine, but by the time it's getting there, you know, that's not helpful. Right? So it's like, I think I think what I know I'm wanting to work on, especially as I navigate my way through the Expertup Club, is being able to know, like, what are the ways I can measure the success of something to see how my experiment is actually going. I'm happy with running experiments, but I don't always know how to measure how well it's going, because then I don't know what to tweak. And then it's like, I guess, I just toss it. I guess, I just toss it.

Right? Or I guess I just let it sit, and maybe it'll die its own death somehow. Maybe Facebook will just archive it. Y'all don't seriously, it's I'm killing the group. Don't worry. I'm killing my Facebook group.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:53]: And Veronica says that she's also terrible at tracking data. So yeah. Pauline, what are you going to say?

Pauline Wiles [00:23:03]: Sorry. I'm noticing already is that it's so much easier to identify when somebody else is dying to stop doing a tactic and encourage them. I saw that between Diann and Elise. But it's very hard to do that for ourselves. So maybe, maybe they're for telling us when to pull the plug on something.

Diann Wingert [00:23:24]: Yeah. No. Even with encouragement, it's hard because Yeah. Our brains are always going, what if? What if? What if? And I think that's a good thing. I think curiosity is fan freaking tastic, but it can also be like a thought loop that there really isn't any way to close because nobody can predict the future.

Michelle Mazur [00:23:44]: Mhmm. Alright. So I am also curious. And I also would love to know in chat from the people who are listening, like, what drives you to overmarket your business. And I will start first because this has always been something that I am keenly aware of. Whenever I'm feeling scarcity in my business, There is a cash flow issue or a launch isn't going as well. I always am like, okay. What can I do more of? Like, maybe I should be more on Threads, or maybe I should be doing more personal outreach, or maybe I should send more emails, or maybe I should do, like, this other thing because I'm, like, I'm just grasping, and I feel like it's that scarcity and panic That it's like, oh, this you know? Because for all of us as solo business owners, like, our The money our business makes is intimately connected to our livelihood and paying ourselves.

So when something isn't going well, it's like, Okay. What else can I throw at this thing to make it work? And Tina's like, yeah, fear in scarcity. But, so I'm curious, do any of you have that experience, or is it something else that's driving you to over-market? Pauline.

Pauline Wiles [00:25:11]: Yeah. Ditto. It's fear. Fear, it's projecting future, future income, future revenue, and believing that I have to do more. Yeah.

Elise Enriquez [00:25:24]: The word that popped into my head immediately when you said it before you even answered for yourself, Michelle, was desperation. That was, like, when you were like, “What causes you?”... I'm like, desperation. That's but it is that same thing. It's that scarcity feeling. This has been such a hard year in my business. And I know you just wrote, an email about this, and you and I have talked about this. And I loved that. I loved what you had to say, this week. Thank you so much. I was already sharing it with a client.

But, anyway, this year has been hard. It's been so it's been the hardest year in my business since my 1st year in my business, and I'm 14 years in. And there's there's, like, lots of there's other complicating components, but it's also just been a hard year. And I have felt more desperate about my mark and, like, and, like, theoretically confused and overwhelmed by marketing this year than I ever, ever have before. And I really do tie it back to, like, like you were saying, Sorry, Pauline. Like you're saying, Pauline, like, being it like that like, projecting forward and like, oh, what does it like, what do things look like? And it's like, okay.

“I gotta get I gotta get myself out there. I gotta get the message out there in some way, some form.”

And so, yeah, I think that absolutely, is and, like, just even talking about it, I'm like, oh my god. I'm re-traumatizing myself right now.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:44]: And Dr. Deborah asked, like, “What is the definition of overmarketing?”

So to me, overmarketing is when we try to do too much. We're trying to do like, the way that I always see it shows up is they're like, oh, well, I am on Instagram, Facebook, And LinkedIn, I wanna do podcasting and a YouTube channel, and I wanna have my email list and, probably, like, a webinar master class thing, and maybe I'll do a summit. Like, that's an extreme version, but it is a version I have seen before.

Elise Enriquez [00:27:14]: And a blog too. And a blog. And a blog. And a micro podcast and private podcast as well.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:21]: And a blog.

And an SEO strategy. So they're trying to do all the things because they think that they need to.

So it's really overmarketing to me is doing more than what your capacity allows you to do. And splitting your focus and attention among multiple things instead of discerning the 1 or 2 things that really work for your business. Because Pauline and diann and Elise here, we talk about this all the time, but I really look at marketing as having 3 jobs. Like, so there's a job to grow your audience and your brand awareness.

And you need 1 strategy or tactic to do that, and that could be like, Yeah. I'm gonna be on LinkedIn, or I'm going to do, like, a summit, or do podcast interviewing, or speaking, or, you know, or one of the other social media platforms.

But you just need one of those. And then you need a way to the 2nd stage is, like, engaging, like, knowing how you're going to nurture and lead people to your work, and that's usually a podcast or a blog or a video, not all 3, usually with some email marketing tied in or a really good CRM. And then you have to know how you're going to invite people in. So that's the offer stage. Like, are you doing consultation calls? Are you doing like, I do open houses for the Expert Up Club and consultations for my 1 on 1 work.

But I see people trying to do so much instead of being like, okay. Like, what's the one thing? If I'm gonna go in on social media, Like, you need to be present on that channel. Just because you can repost, doesn't mean you should.

So to me, it's like, I guess, like, the basic definition is, like, half-assing a bunch of marketing stuff to hope and hoping that you're gonna get a result from it. So

Pauline Wiles [00:29:16]: And the universe I find is quite cruel because it does bring me results from myriad places, and that then serves as encouragement to keep going. So, I almost wish that some of my efforts would be a bigger, faster flop than they are.

Elise Enriquez [00:29:34]: Totally. I get like it. I'm like, I'm just only Instagram, Elise. Just stay on Instagram, and then, of course, like, some of them, like, I Like, I kind of, like, find something that's gonna feed over to my business Facebook page. I kinda don't care anymore. I'll just let it go there or not, but it doesn't go to LinkedIn. Like, I used to but everything just went everywhere. It was ridiculous, and I was never on LinkedIn.

So, anyway, like, goes to Facebook my business Facebook page, and, like, people start commenting there. But I'm like but they're commenting there. I'm like, I don't care. Like, why am I why am I, like just don't worry about it. Just don't worry about it. I'm just gonna stay here. I like it here. I like being here.

But I have to say the grow engage offer, like, I talk about it with myself all the time. Like, the the biggest relief I got, I think I we talked a bit about this when you're on the podcast, Michelle, where you were like, I want experts are are doing too much marketing. They need to mark they need to do less. They need to do less. I'm like, that's probably shocking for people to hear from somebody like you.

And it was such a relief. And to have it in a model like that where it's like, I just need 1 grow method. Like, just pick 1. Right?

It was just a relief, and it allowed me to focus. And it doesn't mean I don't get tempted. Right? Doesn't mean there aren't other, like, Sirens calling out to me, but, it's it's a relief. It's helpful.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:48]: Alright. So I have a confession to make as we're talking about all of this. Like, I'm coming to the realization that I really need to let go of LinkedIn, and it's really hard to let go of LinkedIn. Like, because I've gotten and it's I think it's what Pauline was saying. It's like, you get these glimmers of results from different places, and then you're like, but “is it doing what I need it to do?” Because I really want LinkedIn to bring people to my email community. And when I look at that metric, it's not doing its job.

Like, yes, my LinkedIn following is growing, and my email list isn't. But I'm feeling like I know that's what I need to do, like, it needs to go bye-bye because I've given it a good 6 months, and still, it's really hard to be like, but what if I just try this one other thing? Let me try this instead.

So I really feel that. And that brings us to the last question before I open it up to everyone to ask questions or share insights. How are you right-sizing your own marketing?

Elise Enriquez [00:32:11]: I would say, really, it is focusing on the Grow Engage offer. Like, I am I'm just like, okay. What's it? So I'm it's it's interesting because it means I'm actually doing something new in the long run. Right? So I'm working on building a a quiz around productivity personalities so that I have something to offer when I'm guesting on podcasts.

Because I don't really have a freebie I've ever been excited about. I've never had, like, at all. Like, I don't because I don't like PDFs. I don't like I don't like any of that kind of stuff for some reason.

Like, there's just nothing I've been excited about offering to get people to, like, join a list, for example. And so and I love being a podcast guest. So it's like, I wanna have at least something. You know? I can point them to my podcast. I can point them to my Instagram, and that's all well and good. But in terms of saying actual email list growth, So, actually, growing that list, I wanted to have something I was excited about when I'm guesting. And so, Being able to say, okay. That's the thing.

I'm gonna be guesting on podcasts, and that's what I'm offering. Right? That or in terms of my own podcast. And then with the engage, it's my own podcast, which I love doing. And then, you know, offers are honoring as I go, but I have my email list that I'm growing. And so just having like, seriously, I just, Like, I love a good model in geo, if you will. GEO, growing and gauge offer, is a great it's model that just brings me peace and focus. And so I feel like I am starting to right-size my marketing. Even though right now, there's a little bit of a heavy lift on creating my quiz, It feels fun and exciting, and I have the right support for it.

I'm working with somebody to make that happen. So I think that's the other part is, like, for the stuff that I really am struggling with or don't know what to do, I'm just getting support. I'm investing in myself. I'm investing in the Expert Up Club. I'm investing in that quiz work. Right? Just I think that's what's helping me to right size things is to follow a model and get help. diann or Pauline?

Michelle Mazur [00:34:03]: Diann or Pauline?

Diann Wingert [00:34:04] What I'm realizing, It's not a direct answer to the question of how am I rightsizing. It's what's helping me make the decisions about How to right size.

What I'm realizing, even new insights in this conversation, so I thank you to my peers for this, when we're trying to be too many places, we may actually be interfering with people's ability to hire us. Because, for example, if you're being on a bunch of different social media platforms, You're giving people a little bit, a little bit, a little bit, a little bit. Now what incentive do they have to get on your email list if all they're gonna get is a collection of those little bits that they can already get without giving you their email?

And so I'm realizing that by giving people just enough to, you know, scratch the itch or get the little squirt of dopamine in the moment, I'm actually interfering with them having any reason to give me something in return, like their email, so that we can actually start to develop more of a relationship that's back and forth as opposed to me just putting stuff on, and I don't even know who's saying it.

And that, for me, is like, Oh, yeah. I gotta pull way back because I'm literally working my ass off to do something that is counterproductive.

That just really landed. I feel like the, like, the elevator cables just got cut, and I'm like, you know? Like but I needed to realize that because realizing that, now I'll be able to go to okay. Look at all the things that I'm doing.

What needs to shrink? What needs to change, what needs to go, will be so much easier.

Michelle Mazur [00:35:48]: That's huge. Pauline, how about you?

Pauline Wiles [00:35:51]: The thing that's helping me, Michelle, you gave this advice in a different context for a different conversation quite recently is if in doubt, start with the information or the data from the people who actually hire you.

So I'm forcing myself to acknowledge that if I look back at the clients I've worked with this year, there is an overwhelming way that they say that they have found me and discovered me, and that search engine optimization. So, I cannot escape the truth that my efforts there are paying off, and they're paying off, out of proportion to anything else I'm doing. So really that's that's my information on where I need to lean in Very, very. In a in a very focused way.

Michelle Mazur [00:36:39]: Yeah.

Elise Enriquez [00:36:40]: Yeah. Congratulations. I love that.

Michelle Mazur [00:36:42]: Yeah. That's amazing.

Elise Enriquez [00:36:43]: I love that clarity, like, yay!

Michelle Mazur [00:36:47]: Yeah. I, no. I think it's so good when you're like, Oh, everyone is finding me through search engines. Or people will be like, oh, yeah. “most of my clients come through referral referrals or word-of-mouth.”

And I'm like, you realize that's a marketing strategy, right, that you can build out and optimize. So I think that's a really great thing is to look at the people who are paying you, and where are they coming from? How are they discovering you? Because that will tell you what where you should be marketing, where you should be spending your time creating new relationships.

Elise Enriquez [00:37:28]: And I'm like, No, because so many are from speaking engagements that I don't like doing. But what I'm doing, though, is finding, like, what are the ways I like to do that? So the last speaking engagement that I just did, it was me and another coach, and I said, Yeah. We're not gonna be doing a presentation. We're gonna be having a conversation about, like, how we wrap up our year and plan our year, and then it's gonna be half of it, it's gonna be like Q&A. And they were like, ‘Okay’. And I was like, okay. Great. Best, like, speaking engagement I've ever done.

Elise Enriquez [00:37:55]: Like, put me on a panel. Let me do Q&A. Like, I kill it. I kill it. It's the best energy I could bring. Make me present slides, no! Right? But still, it is that live engagement. Right? And that is referrals and speaking engagements, a lot of where I get it from, but that's also why I wanna do more podcasting and have more of, like, authentic real me come through is I'm in conversation with people. So dang it, Pauline. Dang it. Okay.

Michelle Mazur [00:38:23]: Well and, I mean I think what I love about That is, like, you're taking control of how you want to show up in that marketing when you're speaking. Like, Sir Richard Branson does that all the time. He does not give speeches, but he will have a conversation. He will answer questions. He does not wanna give a keynote, and he takes control of that. And I think we can all do that a little bit more with our marketing.

Elise Enriquez [00:38:50]: I just need Dame Elise Enriquez, I think, I just get that going for me, I think I'll be set.

Michelle Mazur [00:38:57]: So just become a British citizen. So this is how you right-size your marketing. You become a British citizen, and then you can get knighted or get damehood, and then you can do whatever you want. Right?

diann Wingert [00:39:08]: Start getting that crown made right now.

Michelle Mazur [00:39:10]: Yeah.

So I would love to hear from everyone listening. What were your insights or if you have a question or if you want us to help you figure out if you should let go of a certain marketing tactic, you can let us know.

I see that Veronica wrote that she's ‘tragically under marketing right now’, but Veronica also just had a baby. Like, I know that about you. But, historically, it feels like if I just do more and I'm in all the places people will find me. For example, Gary V, ‘be everywhere, that omnipresent message.’ Oh, Gary v. Such a fraught relationship with him in my head, because he wants you to, like, crush it and be omnipresent.

And meanwhile, he has a freaking camera crew following him around, turning everything he says into content that can be broadcast. And as solo business owners, we don't have that luxury. Veronica asked, “what do you think of the newest trend of putting content behind an opt-in wall? For example, an IG broadcast channel.”

Oh. And also, I think I would consider like substack as well would probably fall into that. I'll let you all go in a minute, but I have opinions on this. And I think it's the fundamental difference of figuring out if you are a creator or a business owner. So for business owners, we are creating content.

We are creating marketing with the purpose of leading people into working with us. Whereas, creators create content because they wanna get paid for creating content. And that payment can look like your substack, it can look like your Patreon, it can look like sponsorships for your newsletter. And so I think it's for business owners, we have to be because it's really to I say this, like, I have a Patreon for ‘Duped’. Like, I consider that my creator hobby, but we have to be intentional, like, how do you want to get paid? Do you wanna get paid through brand sponsorships and $ 7-a-month subscriptions from people who wanna read your stuff, or do you wanna get paid from selling your thing?

Elise Enriquez [00:41:42]: I have to say that was the best thing for me to think about what I can't remember whose podcast you're on, you're on a podcast.

Michelle Mazur [00:41:50]: Oh, it was Jeremy and Anne's roundtable discussion with Jay Klaus and Jay Acunzo who are both creators.

Elise Enriquez [00:41:55]: They're both creators, and Michelle is an expert, right, selling services. And for that voice to be in that discussion was so helpful for me in clarifying my podcast intentions. Right? It's completely changed how I've done my podcast this year, is to be like, no. I am a productivity coach who sells that as a service. I have these offerings, and this is what I do. And so I am not keeping content behind any kind of, you know, Opt-in wall, but I am doing less free coaching, if that makes any sense. Right? Like, I'm just like, you know what? I'm kind of done doing free challenges and free this.

Like, if you wanna be in the challenge, you're gonna pay for the challenge. Part of it is just for that exchange of energy because I will freaking bring it no matter what, but I've realized I'll bring it even more when there's, like, a nice exchange of energy going there. But from a content perspective, It's like, no. like, that content to me is to help them. Like, yeah. I would wanna do a challenge with Elise. Like, even if it's, like, a $9 challenge, I don't care, like, some sort of exchange of energy for the actual service I'm providing. I'm kind of, like, gotten on a little bit of a kick about that, and it's it's feeling really good.

And it's working, and it's working.

Michelle Mazur [00:43:05]: Yeah. No. I love that, like, that boundary.

Elise Enriquez [00:43:09]: Which is different than an open house. Right? Like, I wouldn't char like, I know you don't charge for an open house, and I wouldn't either because I'm not doing my work in an open house like that, you know, totally different thing, of course.

Michelle Mazur [00:43:19]: Yeah. Yeah. And, like, I love, Like, for me, like, these discussions that I wanna have with my community, like, I just wanna get to know people. Like, I really am hosting these because I wanna hear other people's thoughts. I wanna hear their questions, and I like facilitating things like this. Like, it's something that I, they, like, have a strength in. And so, yeah, like, I but I'm very clear on, like, what is free and what is paid. Whereas, like, when you're a creator, like, you still have that same, like, you have to be clear on your boundaries, but you have to also then get clear on, like, what is my paid content for, or what is that doing for me? Whereas, like, when you're a business owner, like, I really believe that every piece of content, every piece of marketing you put out there. Even if you were posting about your cats, you should kind of know the strategy behind it and how it's leading people to your work.

Elise Enriquez [00:44:19]: Well and I think that even in this setting, like, hearing the 3 of us, like, share where we've struggled or even, like, what we're doing to Right size things, you could have coached all 3 of us and been like you know? And we have a form for that, the expert club. Right? We pay you to do that somewhere else.

So you're not doing that here, and that totally makes sense. Right? Like, this is this is a free thing that's happening right now, and it's a great facilitated discussion, which is different than providing your expertise as a coach for all of us. Like, I'm leading a 3 day, annual planning retreat right now that was really reasonably priced. In the past, I've offered for free, but got very few sign ups. Now I'm charging for it, and I almost met my goal for sign-ups. Right? It was very close.

And I set it up as a webinar format so that I could not coach people. I did that for two reasons. I wanted to make sure we got through the content, and I gave everybody time, and nobody could monopolize time, which sorry. I feel like I'm doing a little bit. I will stop after this. But also so that I couldn't coach people, because that's not what that was. I wasn't getting paid to do that there. I have a much higher rate for that.

Right? And so it just has been it's been helpful for me to think about, like, What am I giving away that that's content? And what is my expertise? And how do I, like, honor that? And am I valuing it very much? because if I'm not valuing it, other people aren't going to either. Mhmm.

Diann Wingert [00:45:40]: Elise, you've taken us to a whole other level of depth on this topic of overmarketing because where we started was overmarketing in being in all the places, but what you're talking about now is overmarketing can also be putting too much into our free stuff, draining our resources, depleting ourselves, and maybe even causing some level of resentment that it's not working. When It's up to us to figure out, like, how much to give and how much to hold back, and there's So many different voices on this. Everything from giving your best stuff for free.

Because then people will think this is probably in an episode of Dupe. Give your best stuff for free Because then people will assume, wow. If she's giving this for free, can you imagine how good and then your paid stuff is exactly the freaking same.

Or give, give, give, give, ask, you know, the whole Gary v, but it's sort of like figuring out what should be free, whether it's content marketing or other forms of marketing, like speaking, being on panels, being in summits, you know, teaching someone's community versus what you pay for, because I think I've been guilty of overmarketing by, like, stuffing too much value in my free stuff so that people really don't have a reason to pay me. That's overmarketing on a whole other level.

Michelle Mazur [00:47:25]: Yeah. I mean, I also tend to be a chronic overgiver. Like because I feel like over marketing and overgiving can, you know, definitely go hand in hand where it's like, I'm trying to solve everybody's problem with my content instead of helping them be aware about what problem they actually have, right? Because that is valuable, and what solutions are available from like a high level.

And I remember, in the club, Bev Feldman, who was on the under-marketing panel, she had a new offer and she posted her email follow-up sequence for this offer. And in every single email, she's, like, explaining, like, what it is how to, like, basically, get your email marketing to stop being a hot mess, and she has, like, these steps. And in every step, she was like, and here's how to do it for yourself. And I'm like, what are you doing? Like, you are trying to get them to hire you to do this. Why are you telling them how to do it?

And she's like, “Oh. Oh. I need to stop.”

And I'm like, mhmm. Yes. Yes. Like, you can tell them what it is and why it matters, but you don't have to give them the how, and they can still get like, I think what we don't realize, especially being experts, is that people get so much from the what and the why. It can give them huge, like, epiphanies that you don't have to give the how for free.

Elise Enriquez [00:49:08]: Yeah. It's like the people that are gonna connect those dots are gonna connect those dots and do it. Right? And that's and that's great for them. And the people who aren't are going to be like, can I get hey, can we talk? You know, can I get more here? Like, can I book a consult with you?

Michelle Mazur [00:49:20]: Mhmm. Yeah. Deborah.

Deborah (Webinar Guest) [00:49:22]: So for all you podcasters, which I'm a wannabe, will be, I've heard, a teacher say, “don't tell everything in your podcast.”

So I suppose if you were smart, you'd figure out this is the level that I'm delivering, and I'm not giving this solution during my podcast, or I have a feeling that I'd be like, blah, All the things.

So, I'd be the give-it-away person because I wanna be so helpful. And I'm curious if you've, consciously sorted out like, I never talk about this model or I don't go deep there, but that's the question. Decide in advance or not.

Michelle Mazur [00:50:04]: I always decide everything in advance, but I am a chronic planner. So everything is scripted and planned, and there are times when I feel like it's necessary to go a little deeper into things. Like this podcast, this past week is about Experimentation and, like, how to run a marketing experiment. And I went a little deeper because I think it's important for you to know the steps, and, also, I have this feeling that even if you know the steps, it's still gonna be a little bit hard to execute, like there's some level of support.

So I think that's the difference of, like, Yeah. I'm gonna give you the overview for how to do this, but do I actually think you're going to be able to execute it without more support? And some people will. Some people, like, they'll be able to run with it.

They you know, there are researchers at part and they're just able to go with it. And other people are like, “oh, okay. That's where I'm going wrong, but I don't know what metrics to track’, or ‘I don't know, like, what my hypothesis should be for testing this marketing thing.’

So I think that's, like, for me, it's like just that discernment of, can I give, like, a high-level overview of this, and am I giving everything away? Do I think that they'll be able to do it all by themselves?

Elise Enriquez [00:51:36]: And I think as experts, it's like it can be easy to just say too much. It's so overwhelming. It's so overwhelming. And so it's like I I was more scripted this year, and I was realizing it was getting a little bit in the way of me actually working on the podcast. And so I and I also got new software where I'm I'm using Descript, and so I'm just, like, speak like, I have the outline, but I'm just, like, talking it through and then editing it afterward.

But that way, I have a high-level outline of what I'm talking about, and my episodes are, like, 15 minutes max, maybe 20. It just depends and then sometimes I'll have guests, not very often anymore, but I do have guests sometimes. And sometimes those episodes will be longer, but that's just because I'm wanting to spotlight that guest for some you know, and I feel like it'll help my audience.

But I really, pay I real to basically, I paid attention to you, Michelle. I was just like, yeah. her episodes are short, and they're powerful. Because what happened the way I hired Michelle, I've known her forever, like, peripherally from, like because of networking, but I listened to her podcast and, like, binged it for an entire your day while I was weeding in my garden, and they were all so short. And they were just nice and short, but they were they gave me information that was helpful.

They gave me information that helped me, like, see where I was at so I could make a choice about what I wanted next. And it just so happened that what I wanted next was more help for Michelle. Right? But I could've gotten the help somewhere else if I felt compelled to, but I felt through the podcast that helped me understand where I was at better so I could make better choices.

Elise Enriquez [00:53:10]: And so that's where like I was saying, when you were on that roundtable with Jeremy Enns, it was like that same kind of thing. Like, that's the distinction between, like, trying to sell your content, having your podcast get, sponsored, and make money off your podcast because of the content versus having your podcast really sell your services. Like, it can serve people and sell your services. It can do both.

Michelle Mazur [00:53:32]: And, honestly, when I hear somebody they tell me, like, ‘oh, I binged your podcast’ before I get on a consultation call with them. That is, like, a sign that they have done their homework, that they are ready, that they know my approach and my philosophy. So it just makes sales so much easier because people are like, oh, yeah. Like, you've been in my ears for, like, the past 2 weeks. And I'm like, great. Because I know my podcast works for that.

Elise Enriquez [00:53:58]: But you weren't in like, for example, for me, you weren't in my ears in a way that was so freaking detailed that then I was overwhelmed, and I just couldn't do it. Right? So I think that's, like the thing is, like, you could have given you could have gone through each you could have made each episode twice as long, given me all the steps, And then I would have tried to do it, and I would have been frustrated, and I wouldn't have hired you because you frustrated me. But instead

Diann Wingert [00:54:20] Or or satiated you, Elise.

Michelle Mazur [00:54:23]: Like Yeah.

diann Wingert [00:54:23]: Just filled you up so much that you're like, yeah. Maybe not now. You know? Like Yeah.

Elise Enriquez [00:54:29]: But it wasn't that. It was like, no. This is where I'm at. This is what I want. Okay. Let's do this.

Diann Wingert [00:54:34]: So for you as a future podcaster, Deborah, it does take a little bit of strategy, and you might wanna work with someone on this, but figuring out how to curb your enthusiasm for over-delivering on the podcast, because that shit is very compulsive, and we find ourselves doing it in our marketing, in our coaching, in our everything, And that makes your business very heavy, exhausting.

Michelle Mazur [00:55:01]: Excellent. Final thoughts that you would like to lead people with, like your big takeaway, what you are taking back into your own business. I would love to hear this from you.

Pauline Wiles [00:55:12]: I would say get clear on whether you're primarily a service-based business and you work with a few ideal clients every year, Or whether you're running a volume business, and you really need the big email list and the big presence and to be showing up in multiple places. Because I think one of my problems is I've been following advice from people who are who have the volume business model, And I don't actually need that. I've got the relationships business model.

Michelle Mazur [00:55:40]: And I just wanna say that that is a really good point. Like, understanding how big of an audience you need based on your business model. Because if you are a creator and want sponsorships and to, like, have a Substack or a Patreon, you need a much like you need a huge audience, you need a large audience to pay yourself well from that.

But if you're on the other spectrum and you just need you're looking for a few good quality clients per year, then you probably don't need to be, like, doing all the audience growth things instead, like, focusing on, like, building those relationships. And if you're somewhere in between, like, since I'm moving into more of a community model, like, I have to be focused on audience growth. My number one priority next year is growing my audience. But that's dictated which is different when I was just doing 1 on 1. Right? Because I didn't really have to worry about it.

Now I'm like, Oh, I've gotta reach more people. So I think that's thank you, Pauline, for sharing that because that's brilliant and so true. Diann, how about you? Oh oh, Elise.

Elise Enriquez [00:56:53]: Oh, I'm just saying I'm stealing Pauline's.

Michelle Mazur [00:56:55]: Oh, alright. Then I'll go to Diann. What about you? What was your takeaway?

Diann Wingert [00:57:00]: I'm reminded that every single person who's heard me in the last several years followed a very predictable path. They heard me as a guest on a podcast they follow. They found out I had a podcast and binged through some of my episodes. Maybe they checked me out on Social, maybe they got on my email list, but then it was the consult, and then they became a client. So I should absolutely be placing the highest priority on being a guest on the right podcast.

Michelle Mazur [00:57:30]: That is excellent clarity because podcast guesting is a great grow mechanism. It's a great way to build your audience or brand awareness as well.

Diann Wingert [00:57:40] And meet cool people.

Michelle Mazur [00:57:41] Yeah. Networking, meeting cool people.

Elise Enriquez [00:57:44]: I love it.

Michelle Mazur [00:57:45]: I love it. Well, Thank you all so much for coming to this. Our next event is the ExpertUp Club open house, and I'll be sending out an email about that soon. But if you're interested at all or in 2024, if dialing in your marketing and your messaging is on your radar, the ExpertUp Club is a great place to do that, and you can always sign up at drmichellemazur.com/openhouse. But thank you so much to Diann, Pauline, and Elise for this conversation.

Thank you, Deborah, for your question because, yeah, figuring out how not to overgive so much in our content is always going to be a challenge for us over marketers, but I also just think for us experts in general. Like, how do we put boundaries on it so that we are being of service of our audience and our business at the same time. So with that, thank you so much.

I will send out the replay later today, and I'll chat with you all soon. Take care. Bye.

Elise Enriquez [00:59:01]: Thanks, Michelle. Thank you. Bye. Bye, everybody.

Michelle Mazur [00:59:05]: If the Make Marketing Suck Less pod is making your marketing more effective so that your clients can find and hire you, please share the show with a friend. The easiest way to do that is through pod link. You can find the show at pod.link/rebel, and that page will allow anyone you share the show with to subscribe and start listening in their favorite podcast player.

That's pod.link/rebel.

The Make Marketing Suck Less podcast is a production of Communication Rebel. Our production coordinator is Jessica Gulley-Ward. The podcast is edited by Steven Mills, our executive producer is me, Dr. Michelle Mazur.

The make marketing suck less podcast is recorded on the unseated traditional lands of the coast salish peoples, specifically the first people of Seattle, the Duwamish people, original stewards of the land, past, and present.