Make Marketing Suck Less

Bev Feldman [00:00:00]: “And then it kinda dawned on me last year, I don't need a lead magnet or an opt in. I think you talked about how every time you create something, even if it's free, you still have to “sell it”. I'm like, just selling my newsletter. It was like a weight lifted.”

Michelle Mazur [00:00:22]: Welcome to Make Marketing Suck Less. The podcast that knows marketing is freaking hard, especially when you're a solo business owner trying to juggle it all. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, author of the 3 Word Rebellion and founder of the Expert Up Club. Forget the latest marketing fads and tactics promising social media stardom. I'm here with research-backed strategies to help you clarify your message and get twice as effective with your marketing. And while I can't promise you'll ever love marketing, I'm here. to make you hate it a tiny bit less.

Michelle Mazur [00:01:02]: Think fast. How many lead magnets have you created for your business? For this iteration of my business, I have created at least 6 different lead magnets. And rarely, I've created one that I was really satisfied with.

And I've spent so much time and energy trying to figure out an irresistible opt in that would lead people to my work. And it's really hard to do, but know there is a different way. And this is what Bev Feldman is here to talk about today because trying to find that unicorn lead magnet was making marketing suck more for her and not less. So she went a different way.

A bit about Bev. She is a ConvertKit consultant and an email marketing strategist at Your Personal Tech Fairy. Her approach to email marketing is grounded in understanding the nuances of your business and your values so that you can automate with heart while also keeping things streamlined and simplified. Enjoy this refreshing conversation with Bev, and I'll see you on the flip side with my big three takeaways.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:31]: Welcome, Bev, to Make Marketing Suck Less. I'm so excited that you're joining us today.

Bev Feldman [00:02:37]: Well, I am honored to be here, Michelle.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:39]: So we're just gonna dive right in with the golden question of, What has felt hard about marketing for you in the past, and why does it suck for you?

Bev Feldman [00:02:52]: So what really made it hard in the past, I think, was social media. Just this, like, endless hamster wheel of feeling like I need to be present on social media, and I have to think of clever things to post and this and then you get caught in that, oh, well, now let me see how this is performing. Instead of doing the actual work, you're like, oh, let me go open up Instagram and see if anyone's replied to my witty post. Oh, no. No one has. Or even if they have, you're, like, realizing, like, is this actually getting me anywhere? So I yeah. So I think that and the other thing was getting really when gonna go a different direction too with, with email, with coming up with clever lead magnets.

And first of all, I hate the term lead magnet. There's so many marketing terms that are just awful when you really think about them. You know, like

Michelle Mazur [00:03:47]: I know.

Bev Feldman [00:03:47]: Like magnetizing people? What?

Michelle Mazur [00:03:52]: I have a whole rant about magnetizing people. Well, because do we not understand how magnets work, first off? Magnets attract opposites, right? So the North Pole attracts the South Pole. Like, why would you want to magnetize people who are opposite of what you want?

Bev Feldman [00:04:16]: That's such a good point.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:19]: It drives me bananas. And not only that, sorry, I didn't mean to like go on a whole rant, but I have feelings. I have deep feelings. Like, magnetic marketing came from Dan Kennedy, who was, like, the OG bro marketer. So why would you want to associate yourself with that style of marketing? Alright. I'll let you talk more stuff.

Bev Feldman [00:04:42]: I love your rant, I'm here for it, Michelle.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:46]: I was like, I have things to say about this.

Bev Feldman [00:04:49]: Yes. Yes. Yeah. So I think I mean, I feel like in the past when it comes to trying to find the perfect opt in, I would get, like, so stuck on, like, oh, I have to, like, create this thing and I have to give it a clever name. And now that I've made the thing, I have to, in this little bit of virtual real estate, make it super enticing and, like, write a clever headline. I will draw people in and come up with some clever way to get people to subscribe that's not just saying subscribe. And then it kinda dawned on me, I think, last year, like, I don't need a lead magnet or an opt in. Like, I like, I wanna I think you talked about how every time you create something, even if it's free, you still have to, like, “sell it.” I'm just selling my newsletter. Like, putting that up and it just and it was like a weight lifted.

Bev Feldman [00:05:41]: I was like, oh, I don't need to cut, like, create something interesting to get people to incentivize people to sign up for my list. So you're like, all the years spending too much time coming up with the perfect lead magnet and then marketing that just made it suck.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:01]: Yeah. So, I wanna hear more. Like, how many lead magnets do you think you've created while being in business?

Bev Feldman [00:06:08]: I mean, with this business alone, I feel like probably I don't know. 5, 6? I've only had I've had this business for just under 4 years.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:24]: And then you think about all the work that that's creates because you have to create the lead magnet itself and then the landing page and then the welcome sequence, sequence, and then you have to promote it and get it out there. And it's a ton of work. And you also have to make sure that the lead magnet actually leads people to, like, what it is you do.

Bev Feldman [00:06:51]: Yes. And I think that was the other thing too. Like, okay. Here's my, like, service my services. Like, how do I distill it into something that is of value and will create a win, but doesn't feel like I'm also giving too much away? So it's just like this weird balance. And then I'm I feel like it either it's gonna sound, like, super ironic or it's just gonna be like, yeah. That makes sense because, you know, the the the cobbler shoe syndrome. Like, every time I see the lead magnet, it's like, damn.

Bev Feldman [00:07:23]: Now I have to, like, go into ConvertKit and, like, set up all the stuff for it before I can even, like and then test it. Inevitably, I'd find something wrong, so I'd have to, like, fix it and go test it again, and then I find something else wrong again. And I'm like, I know it's important, but I was like, oh, I just made this. Now I don't I don't wanna have to spend all this time now setting it up to send it out. Like, I'm happy to do it for someone else. I love doing it for other people, but I just don't wanna do it for myself.

Michelle Mazur [00:07:50]: I understand that because there's a lot of tech work on the back end of it. Like, every time you create a new lead magnet, and then there's no guarantee that people are gonna opt into it, or they're gonna like, it's actually gonna work for your offerings.. So it can be a time suck of doom.

Bev Feldman [00:08:09]: Yes, Exactly. And then also, like, when you have multiple ones and each one kinda has its own little automation, like thinking through all the logistics of that. And like, I, I get so into the weeds doing because this is what I do for my own business is helping other people with it that I've, like, made it so unnecessarily complex. It just, like, pretty much breaks skimp or kit for me. It's like, oh, this clever thing I set up so that, like, it does this and then holds off on doing that, then I have to, like, go back and check and make sure it's doing it correctly. And, inevitably, I've found mistakes I've made. I was like I'm like like, screw this. Just getting rid of all the things and just keeping the one very basic thing.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:58]: So important. It's the one very basic thing. So tell me, like, how did you make the decision to go all in on just having a newsletter and making that the free product that you're selling?

Bev Feldman [00:09:13]: Yeah. That is such a good question. And I feel like I don't remember specifically, and I'm sure it's in part, if not fully, due to being in the Expert Up Club. Like, I wish I could say I there's a specific moment in time, but I honestly don't remember. It was just some time in 2023 I was like, why am I putting all this effort in? Like, especially knowing that people say they enjoy reading my emails, I feel like that like, I want to lead people to my newsletter and get my emails from me. So why am I like, I think I present enough value in that content from them that what's the point of doing that? And then also, I think creating going through the effort of creating a why buy statement, I was like, wait. Why don't I just use that as the incentive to sign up for my to get emails from me instead of having to be like, here's what makes my newsletter so fantastic. Now go sign up for this other thing instead. Like, oh, I could just use this thing that I've already spent time and effort creating, and I feel like it also helps me to talk about my newsletter in general.

Michelle Mazur [00:10:25]: And just for people who are listening and who don't know, a why buy statement is a one sentence that is the most compelling reason why people should buy or subscribe to your thing. And it's something that we do inside the Expert Up Club, and it's so great because you can apply it to so many different whether it's your newsletter or a podcast or your offer or your entire business. So why don't you tell us, like, what is your newsletter called? And what's the pitch for it?

Bev Feldman [00:10:58]: Oh, gosh. Now I feel put on the spot. I'm like, I hope I remember it. Well, it's called the Automate with Heart newsletter, and it's positioned as the only weekly’ish newsletter for coaches, consultants, and small business owners who wanna be intentional and values aligned with our email automation strategy.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:16]: I love it. I love it. It's very, robust.

Bev Feldman [00:11:24]: Yeah. It's meaty.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:25]: Well, because it yeah, like, well, and I think that was an epiphany for me, I'm gonna say either last no, it was probably last year around this time, I was like, why don't I just have a newsletter? Like, I have this great positioning with Make Marketing Suck Less. And then the newsletter is just an addition. Like, I'll send you a weekly newsletter that is, like, one thing that's gonna make your marketing suck less. And it was just like, oh, well, that's like yeah. That's easy.

Bev Feldman [00:11:56]: Exactly. And I do feel like I've people are talking I've seen a shift where more people are talking about this concept of newsletters overall. And I think because it's more applicable across all business types versus, like, an opt in slash lead magnet slash freebie, whatever you call it. Even though, you know, you see a lot of online business coaches saying, oh, every business should have this. And like, there's so many business types where it wouldn't make sense to do that Well, versus, like, you still might want a newsletter to keep people updated about, you know, changes in the industry. But if you're working with, like, you know, it's kind of more I imagine if you're more in the B2B space, that you might still want a newsletter, but it's going to seem kind of weird to be like, oh, download download this free guide about x, y, z. You know, people are not that's not gonna incentivize, I imagine, like, c suites execs or whoever.

Michelle Mazur [00:13:01]: Yeah, they don’t want that. They're just like, I wanna know what you're up you're up to or if you have a new leadership training or whatever it is. Because, yeah, it's very industry specific. Because if you're talking to executives, why would they want a free PDF downloader to take your quiz? It doesn't make a lot of sense. So I am curious. So take us through, like, you have this newsletter, it's very well positioned. How is it working for you?

Before Bev answers that question, we're gonna take a short break.

Michelle Mazur [00:13:37]: Ready to figure out what's working to market your business and what you can stop doing? Then I have a free email based course for you, Market Like An Expert, a 7 day crash course to create a do less but better marketing strategy that creates demand for your offers and expertise while marketing less. You'll get 7 emails delivered right to your inbox that take you through the process to right size your marketing so you're only focused on marketing that actually works for your business, your bottom line, and your sanity. Sign up at drmichellemazur.com/ mle. That's the letters M L E or open your podcast app and hit the link for Market Like An Expert. Now back to the show.

Bev Feldman [00:14:38]: I think, overall, it's working well I think my messaging has shifted quite a bit. Especially in this in the last 6 months to 12 years, which makes sense because I've been in, like, the Expert Up Club at this point just over a year. I see like, right now, I'm working on trying to encourage more people to actually sign up for my newsletter. And it's interesting to see that that in of itself is enough of a drive. And also to see where people are signing up because I did create different forms. Like, there's one version if they go right to my newsletter page. There's a footer version.

Bev Feldman [00:15:14]: There's one for my about page, one on my home page. Just because I'm curious to see what's getting people onto my list. I should probably create one for blog posts, but it's a little aside. And I feel like it's interesting because I still get people reaching out to me who are not on my newsletter, but I also I feel like I'm getting more conversations and more interaction with people on my newsletter and better understanding what resonates with them, what doesn't resonate with them. Like, I think you and I have talked about, like, we both neither one of us have had had success with that 9 word email.

Bev Feldman [00:15:53]: Yeah. It doesn't resonate with my audience. If I've tried to send kind of one off videos to follow-up with folks, that doesn't resonate with them at all. Like, not I don't even know if they open the emails. They're certainly not opening the videos because I can tell from, like, Loom sends me a notification if someone, like, watches the video. So I'm like, why am I wasting time on something that's not working versus sending content, like asking people questions? I have found that what works is either, like, giving people kind of multiple choice options even if it's to get them to reply, say, like, reply with a for this, b for this, c for this. And I could do that as just a click, but I like that for well, first of all, for deliverability reasons, you know, probably emails show up in people's inboxes.

Bev Feldman [00:16:44]: I like the replies. It's a little more work for me, but I also I'm an extrovert. And even though it's email, so it's not quite the same as having a conversation, I like hearing from people on my list. It feels like like I said as I tell people, like, this I don't want this to be a situation where it feels like I'm talking at you. Like, I want this I want to open up a space for this to be a dialog. And that doesn't mean like I expect that everyone who replies is going to become a paying client or customer, but more like to, like, build connection. That's what I look at my newsletter for. Even if it's to, like, get people thinking differently about how they approach email and email marketing. That works for me as well.

Michelle Mazur [00:17:31]: Well and I have a very similar approach, where it's like, I do. I just want people to respond to my emails. Like, even if they just say, oh, I really love this, or they answer a question, or they're like, oh, I don't know if I agree with this. Can you say more about it? You know, there's like, just being able to start that conversation and knowing, like, the email is actually landing with people. Enough that they are motivated to say something.

Bev Feldman [00:18:01]: Exactly. And it's I find it's really helpful as we talk about, like, how do we make market suck less? And I think part of it is with people sometimes get stuck on, like, what do whether it's an email or social media, like, what do I write about? But when you have people responding, it gives you really good insight into, like, what is something else? Like, what are challenges that I could address? Like, I've had more had this come up a few times now. Like, well, what about Substack versus ConvertKit? And I'm like, oh, well, there's a there's a blog post right there because.

Bev Feldman [00:18:34]: Or, I wouldn't necessarily write an email about it because I don't think there's enough folks on my list who necessarily are looking at Substack versus ConvertKit, but I think it'd make a great blog post or, you know, when people ask what there was one post in particular, like, one email I wrote. Oh, it was about the a double opt in versus a single opt in, and I kinda looked at it through a few different lenses.

Bev Feldman [00:19:00]: Which was really it was a fun exercise for me even if I didn't necessarily get a lot of engagement in that email, like, to see like, I think people look at double opt ins versus single opt ins through, like, very specific lenses, but I looked at it through, like, things like deliverability and how it can impact deliverability, but also consents and human connection and then values. And by values, I don't like, one thing I've learned from listening to you and Maggie in, you know, in Duped and what is that you don't get to define other people's values. So I'm very you know? But, like, for me, because I talk about how can you be values, like intentional and values aligned with your email, like understanding what your own values are when it comes to marketing and business. So to make sure every time you set something up that you're understanding, does this actually feel good to me even if it's, “best practice”? Like like, is that something that resonates with me? And, of course, I will add oh, because the other thing I talked about was through the lens of privacy and data, because I've seen a lot of people say, well, oh, well, if I do the double opt in, I'm that makes GDPR compliant. So, you know, GDPR, for folks who don't know, it's the General Data Protection Regulation or something like that. It applies to to people in Europe, Switzerland and the UK, I believe. And there's a little confusion about it. And I dug deeper and I found I think it's Germany and 1 or 2 other countries actually do require it.

Bev Feldman [00:20:43]: So don't quote me on that. I'm not a lawyer. I'm trying to put that little caveat in. But, you know, like, because I'm big on, like, for me, privacy and, like, is important to me. And, you know, being aligned with regulations, I'm going to air on the side of caution and I will always advise my clients to do that. But I also, you know, ultimately like, I'm like, here's the information I'm giving you. Here's what I'd recommend but you also have to do what’s gonna work for your business and knowing who your clientele are.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:24]: Yes. That totally makes sense. And it's so great that you're being able to create from this lens of, like, what are people asking me? What are people confused about when they email me? So then you're able to, like, create very, like, highly relevant content to send to your email list, which I think is just beautiful because, I mean, I've been really thinking about this idea of, like, broadcast versus, like, more of that relationship marketing that our friend Michelle Warner talks about of, like, email can yes. You are broadcasting to however big your list is, but you can also really develop relationships if you are available to talk to people who come into your inbox and say hello.

Bev Feldman [00:22:14]: Yes. And I think, you know, as people talk about growing your email list, because I feel like in a lot of situatations you know, you hear, like, grow your list, without that nuance of, like, well, does your business actually need it? Like, what's your business model? But for me, I like to have some steady growth, but I would never want my newsletter to be so big that I actually don't have time to reply to people's emails. Like, I love. That's one of my favorite parts is I send an email and I see who responds. I'm like, oh, this is so nice to see, who's actually on the other side getting these emails from me. And it feels more like like a relationship and a conversation.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:51]: Yeah. Absolutely. So what are you doing since we're talking about grow your email list, grow your email list and it is important, although all of us need different sizes of email lists, which I've talked about in the past on this podcast. But what are what's working for you as far as promoting the email list?

Bev Feldman [00:23:14]: Yeah. So certainly, like I said, having lots of spots on my website, something I'm trying, I can't take any credit for it, because I'm doing this email growth challenge that Katie Skelton, a fellow email marketer who's based in the UK, is doing that I'm participating in. And, like, just one thing I've tried over the last week is just reaching out to people and inviting them to join. Not random people, but petite people I actually have a connection with. And I was like, oh, this is so brilliant. Like, it's not like, hey. Join my email list.

Bev Feldman [00:23:47]: It's just like, oh, maybe you'll find you know, whether it's a previous client who I haven't chatted with in a while to share, like, oh, you know, here are some updates and why it might be relevant to you or someone I recently connected with. Like, oh, based on who you work with, you might get some information that might help you with your clients. Like, I'm not it isn't like join my list so I can sell to you, which, you know, obviously, there is some selling, but it's about, like, kinda Keeping in touch. And I just when she shared that, the challenge was like, wow. That's that's really brilliant, actually. And so different from what you normally see. Like, I like that it's more, intentional and active instead of, I think, a lot of list growth stuff that's taught is more passive. Like, just put it out there and the people will flock to you.

Michelle Mazur [00:24:38]: And cross your fingers. Yes.

Bev Feldman [00:24:42]: So and, like, you know, if someone books a call with me and they're not already on my list is I already was encouraging them more recently to to sign up. And I think I have an automated email that goes out to people when they book a call with me on Calendly. I have it in my auto responder. I don't know how many people I get from that. But, you know, I think that's that's been one thing. I am signed up for ConvertKit's creator network, which I kinda have a love, hate relationship with.

Bev Feldman [00:25:14]: Yeah. I created my own version of a double opt in for that. So if anyone comes in specifically through the Creator Network, they have to click. And I think it's like a 2 email sequence. So they have to click to confirm that they actually wanna hear from me. Otherwise, they're automatically unsubscribed because I was just getting, like, had some massive growth, and then these people were not engaging at all, which was impacting, you know, my you know you know, it's a vanity metric, but, you know, I don't it's not fun to see your open rates tank. People who are not engaging with your emails.

Michelle Mazur [00:25:50]: And you're paying for your email list.

Bev Feldman [00:25:52]: Exactly..

Michelle Mazur [00:25:54]: So having a bunch of people who are like, I'm never gonna open even one of your emails is not great.

Bev Feldman [00:26:01]: Yes. Exactly. So I found even though only a tiny portion and I don't know the exact number or the exact percentage, but even though compared to the number of people who come in mostly through ConvertKit Smart Recommendations is pretty small. Like the people who then say on are more engaged. So if and I shockingly have had like 1 or 2 clients come in through that.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:31]: Oh, that's excellent.

Bev Feldman [00:26:32]: And I make it very clear on that first email, like, this is what my emails are about. If this sounds good to you, like, I have a here. Great. Otherwise, you know, if it's not relevant, you can unsubscribe.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:47]: Yeah. Or then if they don't open up, you can just delete them.

Bev Feldman [00:26:52]: Exactly.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:54]: Smart. Very smart. All right, one final question for you. So now that you've made certain decisions, like realizing that social media is kind of the hamster wheel that you'd really don't wanna participate in and seeing your newsletter as an actual product, as the thing people should opt in for, how do you feel about marketing your business now?

Bev Feldman [00:27:19]: Overall, I feel much more at ease with it. Like, I don't like, I just focus my attention on writing my newsletter and then, you know, you and using email in general as a tool, whether it's email marketing or doing kind of more 1 on 1 outreach with either usually with people I've engaged with in the past. And it's nice because, like, I've, like, my 9 grid up in Instagram, so it doesn't look like I've completely left. And I have had a couple people reach out to me through it recently which has been shocking. Like, they just looked up ConvertKit and I showed up.

Bev Feldman [00:28:02]: Yeah. So I'm like, that works for me. Like, and I really honestly love writing my weekly newsletter, which is kind of funny because I, up until, like, I don't know, 10 years ago hated writing and I was a very self conscious writer. So to have something I absolutely despise to not be like I really forward to writing. It's just like still blows my mind. So yeah. And I like with the newsletter oh, go ahead.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:34]: Oh, no. I was gonna say I'm right there with you. Like, I love writing my weekly newsletter. I think it's my favorite thing that I have the op get the opportunity to do every week. I mean, and it takes a while because you and I both are, like, very kind of meaty writers. So it's like if you're on our in our email communities, it's like, oh, you're gonna get some good stuff to think about.

Bev Feldman [00:28:59]: Oh, yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:01]: But I love doing it. It's so much fun for me.

Bev Feldman [00:29:05]: Yeah. And I feel like the process of writing has really helped me to uncover, like, really understand my positioning better and how I see the world and I see email and I don't know it's just it's been kind of eye opening to me to just really put so much time and attention into it. And I'll say that not every week is a super meaty email. I do have weeks where I'm, like, pressed for time, and it's like a quick email. And those are fun too because I think it gives people a way to engage without having to, like, okay, we have to block off some time for Bev's email today.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:49]: Yes. Yes. No. I'm right there with you. So speaking of your newsletter, why don't you tell everyone where they can get it?

Bev Feldman [00:30:00]: Absolutely. So my newsletter, like I said, is called Automate with Heart. If you go to my website, which is yourpersonaltechfairy.com, you can either you can go directly to yourpersonaltechfairy.com/newsletter, or you'll like I said, you'll find it anywhere on my website, in the footer, on my about page. And now as I'm talking, I'm like, I should probably see if the domain automate with heart is available. Buy it if it is, because that would be really handy, to have.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:35]: That will make it easier.

Bev Feldman [00:30:36]: Yeah. Who knows? By the time you're you're listening to this podcast, you might actually be able to go to that to automatewith heart.com, but we shall see.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:47]: Awesome. Everyone, I highly recommend Bev's newsletter. I'm on her newsletter list and enjoy her emails immensely, especially as I am upping my own ConvertKit, soon to be Kit.

Bev Feldman [00:31:02]: Oh my gosh. I know. .

Michelle Mazur [00:31:04]: Soon to be Kit, email skills. But Bev, thank you so much for being here and taking us behind the scenes about what works in your business and how you're making marketing suck less.

Bev Feldman [00:31:16]: Thank you, Michelle.

Michelle Mazur [00:31:20]: I loved this conversation with Bev, and I'm so grateful that she let me go on my little rant about magnetize. Always need to get that out of my system. But what I took away from this conversation with Bev was number 1, your newsletter. Your email marketing can actually be a product. Yes. It is a free product, but you still have to treat it like something that you need to promote. You don't need a stinking lead magnet to build your list. You can use a newsletter instead.

Michelle Mazur [00:32:01]: This leads me to my second big takeaway. If you do go the newsletter route, make sure you give people a clear, compelling reason to opt in. I remember working with Bev in the Expert Up Club on her why buy statement for her email opt in. That piece of messaging gave her newsletter a reason. It made it more valuable. And I recently heard somewhere that people value their email address at $20. And if you have a well positioned newsletter with a compelling why buy statement, a reason to subscribe, then your newsletter is worth at least that, if not more. And then finally, newsletters are most effective, and I would actually say email marketing is most effective when you use it to start conversations, be available to talk to your people on your email list.

Michelle Mazur [00:33:07]: Encourage them to respond, to reply, to ask you questions because those conversations are gold. And if you're on somebody's newsletter list that you love, then respond to their newsletter. Because I guarantee, as a newsletter writer myself, I love hearing from people and knowing how my work impacts you. So use your newsletter to start conversations. This is the best way to make email marketing suck less, is use it to build relationships because it is so much fun when people respond.

Michelle Mazur [00:33:07]: If the Make Marketing Suck Less pod is making your marketing more effective so that your clients can find and hire you, please share the show with a friend. The easiest way to do that is through pod link. You can find the show at pod.link/rebel, and that page will allow anyone you share the show with to subscribe and start listening in their favorite podcast player.

That's pod.link/rebel.

The Make Marketing Suck Less podcast is a production of Communication Rebel. Our production coordinator is Jessica Gulley-Ward. The podcast is edited by Steven Mills, our executive producer is me, Dr. Michelle Mazur.

The make marketing suck less podcast is recorded on the unseated traditional lands of the coast salish peoples, specifically the first people of Seattle, the Duwamish people, original stewards of the land, past, and present.