Make Marketing Suck Less

Norma Frahn [00:00:00]: I got thinking all that time I'm spending over here on social, and I'm not spending really any quality time with the people that voluntarily chose to be in my world by opting into my thing.

Michelle Mazur [00:00:19]: Welcome to Make Marketing Suck Less. The podcast that knows marketing is freaking hard, especially when you're a solo business owner trying to juggle it all. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, author of the 3 Word Rebellion and founder of the Expert Up Club. Forget the latest marketing fads and tactics promising social media stardom. I'm here with research-backed strategies to help you clarify your message and get twice as effective with your marketing. And while I can't promise you'll ever love marketing, I'm here to make you hate it a tiny bit less.

Michelle Mazur [00:00:59]: Riddle me this, Batman. Why do we spend so much time on marketing that leads nowhere versus focusing on marketing that works to get clients? It's probably because everybody on the interwebs is screaming at you to do more marketing and do it on social media, when for so many people, that is just a waste of time. At least that's what my guest, Norma Frahn, found out.

Michelle Mazur [00:01:33]: Norma is an emotional eating and food freedom coach who specializes in helping women who've struggled with dieting for years without seeing lasting results. You see, Norma was working a full-time job and trying to do all the things when it came to marketing, and it brought her to the brink of burnout. Norma then did 2 things that helped her right-size her marketing and make it suck a whole lot less. What are those 2 things? You've gotta keep listening to find out. Enjoy, and I will see you on the flip side with my 3 big takeaways. Welcome, Norma, to Make Marketing Suck Less. I am thrilled that you're here with us today.

Norma Frahn [00:02:20]: Oh, thank you. And I am so excited to do this too.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:21]: Yes. So I am very interested in hearing your answer to this. Like, what makes marketing suck for you? Like, what has helped felt hard about it in the past?

Norma Frahn [00:02:37]: In the past, it's actually 2 things, but I think it kind of connected. So first is my messaging. That felt really hard for me because I'm an emotional eating and food freedom coach, and most people come to me for weight loss. Even though I didn't have weight loss anywhere on my site. I very intentionally wasn't talking about weight loss, but that's what they all wanted. And I think I actually got a little cavalier about not talking about weight loss. And

Norma Frahn [00:03:11]: I really wanted people to understand that there's another reason why they're feeling the way they're feeling and why they want weight loss. And I put a lot of effort in trying to convince them of what I thought they needed, instead of listening to what they were saying to me and then finding a way to to talk to them about the pain that they were having while at the same time sharing what it was that I could do to help them. And that hung me up for so long.

Michelle Mazur [00:03:46]: And that's a really tricky part because I know a lot of, like, dietitians, people who work in emotional eating, and it's not about the weight loss. And, like, you and I, like, intellectually, we know that. But when we're talking to people, that's the thing that we're coming for. And then we'll talk in a minute, like, how you reconcile those two things. But I think that's always an issue because it's like, well, this is what they want, but I know they really need this.

Norma Frahn [00:04:19]: And it felt like I was constantly, like, beating the drum. No. No. No. Listen to me. Listen to me. And I wasn't making any real connection that way. I was probably turning people off.

Norma Frahn [00:04:28]: You know?

Michelle Mazur [00:04:29]: Yes. Yes. Okay. So the messaging was hard. And then what else? You said there was a second thing.

Norma Frahn [00:04:36]: The other part that was hard for me is the social media. I never really enjoyed being there, but I spent a lot of time there. Because I think I had been very early on in my coaching career, been gurued into this idea that I had to be there. And not only did I have to be there, I had to be everywhere. So I tried that. I was on Facebook and Instagram and Twitter and YouTube. I was trying to do all the things.

Norma Frahn [00:05:07]: And I was working full-time at that point in time. So it was it was hard. It was really, really hard. Combine that with my messaging problem. Oh, it was a nightmare.

Michelle Mazur [00:05:18]: Yeah. Well and how are you pulling that off? Like, working full time, having a business where you're doing sales and client delivery, and then you're trying to be everywhere. So how were like, how are you trying to get it all done?

Norma Frahn [00:05:34]: Oh, it was it I think of it like bookends. My business happened at the beginning of the day, at the end of the day, and then on weekends. So I was working all the time, and it didn't feel good. It started to get. I truly think I never quite understood burnout until I got to the point where I didn't think I could do another thing in either place, my job-job or my business. It was just I was frozen, and something had to give. And that's when I made the decision to leave my corporate job and go all in on the business because that's what I love doing.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:12]: But that is that is a lot. I mean, I remember, like, my business started as a side hustle too, and I did the same thing. Like, I had bookends where it's like, I got up several hours early, did some work on the business, then I would go to my job, then I'd get ready and then go to my job, and then I would come home at night and sometimes try to do something.

Norma Frahn [00:06:34]: Yeah. That was that was hit or miss, that night-time stuff.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:40]: And, like, when you're doing all of this, like, how was social media working for your business?

Norma Frahn [00:06:47]: It wasn't. It truly wasn't working. In fact, when when I look back now I mean, I can see it clearly. I was putting all of this time into creating posts and schedules and all the things, and getting very, very little results, very little followers. And when I when I kinda realized that, like, what is the point of doing all of this work? That's when kind of the light bulbs started coming on, and I just let it go. There was several months now, where I never opened a social media app.

Norma Frahn [00:07:20]: And I started to focus on the other place, email. Email marketing was because what it was, I started to get some real traction on some of my freebies. Kinda weird. Out of the blue, just a lot of traction. And I started getting people on my email list. And I got thinking all that time I'm spending over here on social, and I'm not spending really any quality time with the people that voluntarily chose to be in my world by opting into my thing. So I just kinda flipped it and decided, alright.

Norma Frahn [00:07:54]: Social media, I'll just do that, like, as proof of life. I'll pop in every once in a while and put it in and put all my time and attention on my email list, and it's paid off in spades.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:07]: Alright. I wanna hold that thought for just a second. Alright. So to summarize, like, the big reasons why marketing was sucking for you is you didn't have the messaging dialed in, and you were, like, wasting all of this time on social media, and it wasn't really doing anything. You weren't getting followers. You weren't getting, leads. It wasn't helping at all. And so I'm curious about the lead magnet and what started popping and working with that, but I wanna talk about the messaging piece because I have a feeling these 2 things might be relevant.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:39]: So tell me, like, what did you do to reconcile this? I they want weight loss, and I know that's not the way they really need this.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:55]: So how did you reconcile that?

Norma Frahn [00:08:58]: Baby steps, first of all. And that was more for my benefit because I needed to get comfortable with it. So I built this big story in my head that I didn't wanna be one of those weight loss coaches. You know, the ones with the before and after pictures and the hard meal plans. That wasn't about any of that. And I was so removed from that or was trying to be that I just completely detached and couldn't even use the words weight loss. But then I started to talk about it a little bit more in the form of, I kinda found a spin, and I called it un-dieting.

Norma Frahn [00:09:31]: And I started talking to people about, let's un-diet yourself. And in the process of un-dieting, we work on emotional eating. And we work on getting comfortable with food and eating all foods and not restricting. So I started from that perspective just working on kind of the un-diet concept, and it's kind of evolving a little bit more. Now I can openly and comfortably talk about yes. I get it. I know you want to lose weight, and here's how I can help you do it. And it's not a diet.

Norma Frahn [00:10:02]: It's not a meal plan. And we tackle the thing that matters, and it's emotional eating. And it's working. People are that's almost like little light bulbs are coming on. It's like, oh, I never made that connection between my overeating and weight loss. I mean, in, emotional eating. But those two things that they just weren't making the connection, and suddenly they did. And it's easier for me to talk about now because I'd let go of that story that I couldn't say the words weight loss.

Norma Frahn [00:10:31]: And started talking about it because, like I said, that's what people were telling me they wanted. So I just gotta find a new way to give it to them. You know?

Michelle Mazur [00:10:40]: Well, and what I find interesting, especially with the words like un-dieting, they don't wanna diet. Like nobody's coming to you. Like, you know what? I really love a new diet, Norma. Please give me a diet.

Norma Frahn [00:10:52]: Yeah. But that's see, that's the thing. That's the little piece that's underneath that most people believe that's the only way to lose weight. So I started talking about, ah, I mean, you can lose weight and not diet. And let me tell you how. And that started to get traction.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:10]: Yes. Yes. So because if you think I mean, well, you could probably talk to this. Like, what are some of the negative associations around dieting?

Norma Frahn [00:11:19]: Exactly. I talk about all those things. In fact, I point out now how the diet is actually causing you to overeat. And that's when I see all kinds of light bulbs come on. This whole idea that you're restricting, you're disregulating your nervous system. You need relief. The only way you can get it is to eat because that's the only thing you know to do. That's your best coping strategy.

Norma Frahn [00:11:44]: And then your guilt and shame comes in and then you're right back at the top. We start the whole process again. So we work on that middle piece of in dieting and dealing with a coping strategy instead of taking away food.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:57]: Yes. Yes. I mean, what I love, and it's something I think that's really important from a messaging standpoint, is that you're giving people belief shifts. Like, the light bulbs that are going off of, like, oh, I never thought about it that way before. Oh, is that the thing holding me back?

Norma Frahn [00:12:15]: Exactly. And that's what I think. It was a it was a belief shift for me in terms of how I spoke about what I do. And to be able to I can talk about this thing that this diet culture that I'm so adamantly against, but I can do it in a way that shows them that there is a better way. There's another way besides another diet. And It's it seems to be working.

Michelle Mazur [00:12:39]: Yeah. Well and I think another thing that's really interesting is, like, you are like, you're in an industry where the indoctrination to diet culture is so strong that that's like, it's weight loss. It's looking a certain way. And to give them something that is an alternative, I can see why people are like, where have you been?

Norma Frahn [00:13:06]: Yeah. Exactly. And I and and you're so right about the whole indoctrination into weight loss and and diet culture in general. When I have conversations with people and I just ask them a question, you know, was weight loss a thing when you were growing up as a kid? Like, oh my gosh. My mom was always on a diet. Or I was put on a diet when I was 10 years old.

Norma Frahn [00:13:28]: And that's my path into talking about the emotional aspects of food and eating, and I can start making some more connections. So it's I've just found a way around weight loss, but still addresses weight loss.

Michelle Mazur [00:13:44]: No. I think that's amazing. So kind of related, so what were the lead magnets on your website that started converting really well and helping you build your email list? Because I feel like that's the one of the toughest nuts to crack is, like, what should my lead magnet be? How do I feel the opt in?

Michelle Mazur [00:14:03]: Before Norma tells us how she cracked the code on her opt in, we're gonna take a quick break. Are you ready to stop doing marketing you hate and start focusing on what actually works for your business? Because guess what? There's no one right way to market your business, and you've got so many options. It's like a buffet. And that's why I created the Market Like An Expert 7-day Crash Course to create a do-less but better marketing strategy that creates demand for your offers and your expertise.

Michelle Mazur [00:14:44]: It's time to discover your options and create a marketing plan that doesn't suck the life out of you. You can sign up for this completely free course at drmichellemazur.com/mle, or open your podcast app and click on Market Like An Expert. Now back to our show.

Norma Frahn [00:15:11]: Yeah. So I had this technique or I have this technique that I teach my clients, and I could just call it the pause method. And it's when you're feeling really a really big emotion and the first thing you wanna do is go eat something, to just pause. Just stop. Take a deep breath, and then just ask yourself, what am I really hungry for? And if it's something you can give yourself, go ahead and do that first. Like, I just need a rest. I need to get away from this computer, or I just need a change of environment.

Norma Frahn [00:15:41]: And doing that enough times starts to kinda rewire that that urge to eat when you're feeling that emotion. So I wrote it up in a guide, just a

Norma Frahn [00:15:51]: week, and I talk about it. It's like stop emotional eating in its tracks. It's kind of my my hook on my my, post for it, and it just took off. I still get probably 10 people a week is my average on that one. It is just a PDF. It's just a PDF that walks them through that process of pausing and making an intentional decision versus an emotional one. That's really the point of it.

Norma Frahn [00:16:19]: And it's really it not only has it got me leads, but it's generated conversation, which has been fantastic.

Michelle Mazur [00:16:27]: Excellent. Excellent. And are you doing, like how are you promoting it? Are people how are people finding it? Is it, like, through search engine optimization? Or

Norma Frahn [00:16:37]: I I think a little bit of everything. Okay. I put a, I have, like, a snippet in my emails. Any email that goes out references that. That gets a lot of traction there. I have, I have a course on my website. I'll occasionally just do a post about it, pointing people to it. And I still do my YouTube channel, so I always have it in almost every YouTube description as a resource that they can get.

Norma Frahn [00:17:04]: And that's where a lot of my traffic comes from too.

Michelle Mazur [00:17:07]: Okay. So you're doing and I think that's something to really point out is that when you have a lead magnet and it is working well, that you need to post it everywhere and talk about it more often than you think. Because I think what I have seen people do okay. And what I have done in the past is I created a lead magnet, and then I'm like, alright. Here it is.

Norma Frahn [00:17:34]: Oh my gosh. Me too. I put it up there. This is wonderful. Why is nobody why nobody's touching it. And I just talked about it that one time, that one post. I know. And it's

Michelle Mazur [00:17:47]: like, no. I to talk about it all of the time. And, honestly, it's like just

Norma Frahn [00:17:52]: splashing it. Splashing it everywhere I possibly can.

Michelle Mazur [00:17:56]: I love that. I love that. Okay. And so then you're saying so once they get so it's converting well for you. Once they get on your list, either you're starting conversations, but then what happens? Like, how like, what's that journey to work with you look like?

Norma Frahn [00:18:12]: Yeah. So this is something I've been working really hard on kind of, like, behind the scenes is understanding email marketing and sequences and how to really keep that that nurturing conversation going. So once they opt into this, there's a series of, like, 6 or 8 emails that talk specifically about emotional eating. In fact, each one of them is is a myth about emotional eating that I'm debunking in that email.

Michelle Mazur [00:18:39]: Oh, okay.

Norma Frahn [00:18:40]: And then I have yeah. That that works, I get lots of questions. And this is the part I love that I never expected with email marketing. I'm actually talking to people, but it's through email. They'll send me questions, and it's just generated conversation. After they get out of that sequence, then they kinda drop into my weekly email. It's not really a newsletter, but it's just a weekly email that goes out every Sunday.

Norma Frahn [00:19:04]: And there's use I think I have a 5-day pause built into the sequencing, and then they move into, it's technically a sales sequence where I'm talking all about my program and how it can help them lose weight by solving emotional eating. And that's really new. I started that about a month ago, and that's starting to get some traction now.

Michelle Mazur [00:19:29]: Nice. Nice. No. I think that's a very smart system, because the other place I see things drop off is people get people on their email list, and then they send them the thing, and then that's it. Yeah.

Norma Frahn [00:19:48]: And it was cut well, I don't wanna say it was it was sorta like that. I was doing one email every week. I have been for 3 almost 4 years now. I have never missed one. Every Sunday, an email goes out. Yes. So they were always getting that, but that was it.

Norma Frahn [00:20:03]: And part of it was I didn't quite understand the idea of a sequence, and I certainly didn't understand how that the system I was using worked. So once it took the time to understand ConvertKit and what it can do, it was like, oh, wow. I can do this and I can do that, and everything started to fall into place.

Michelle Mazur [00:20:23]: Well and then the other smart thing from, like, a messaging perspective is that you're shifting beliefs with the myths that you're, helping them debunk. You're starting conversations, which I think is probably one of the most underutilized ways to, like, use email marketing. And then by the time they get to the sales sequence, you're like, alright, they are bought into this idea of emotional eating, causing, like, their weight gain or their want their desire to lose weight. And they're like, alright. Tell me how I can deal with this.

Norma Frahn [00:21:03]: So it's Exactly. Yeah. And I feel like I've that's really clicking now. And it's and it's truly it's making everything so much easier. And I do and it's not just like the process I put in place, but like you said, it's the messaging. I finally got some messaging that not only feels really good to me, but it's making sense to to other people. This particular client group, I found anyway, they're less likely to post very vulnerable things on social media, like on Facebook or Instagram.

Norma Frahn [00:21:40]: So telling, you know, comment below never happened. Rarely happens. But an email, that feels a little safer. They and they send me questions. They say, oh, thank you. This has been happening to me. What do I do about this? And I can start to actually build a relationship. And I have to say my last handful of private clients came from that process.

Norma Frahn [00:22:04]: It took a handful of back-and-forths, and it was okay. What do I do to sign up? And it just they just had to get some trust built with me. That's all it took.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:16]: Yeah. And it sounds like well, and plus the work you're doing with people is really intimate, and it's personal.

Norma Frahn [00:22:24]: Yep.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:24]: So it makes sense that you have to have that trust in place. So it's not just like, hey. Here's my sales page. Go buy. Exactly. Exactly. And, you know, that's the other thing. I was trying to force this.

Norma Frahn [00:22:41]: Like, let's have a let's have a coffee chat. Let's get on the phone and talk about it. Nobody wanted to do that yet. They didn't they didn't know me well enough. That was like I was asking them to do the most scariest thing in the world. You know? And after a few a few back and forths and a little bit of comfort was built, I'm starting to get more of those conversations and actually getting them on the phone and having that face-to-face. And that's kind of part 2 of my goal is to get more of those going because I know those types of calls are the very thing that is gonna help kinda push them over the edge a little bit and say, okay. I think, you know, now that I've talked to you personally, I can really trust you.

Norma Frahn [00:23:19]: Let's go. You know? And that's what I'm hoping for.

Michelle Mazur [00:23:22]: Yeah. Well and that seems like would be perfect for more of the sales sequence, like the people who are, already talking to you.

Michelle Mazur [00:23:32]: And then they see, like, oh, wait. I enjoy talking to her over email. It makes more sense to talk to you Yeah. Over the phone. And it's less scary because they know what to expect.

Norma Frahn [00:23:42]: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. And it's it's just been and it's been fun. It's been so much fun to do it this way. I mean, I finally am having fun with my business. And before, it was just, oh, it was it was a struggle, and it felt like every day I was just out there just, like, screaming into the abyss and nobody was paying attention.

Michelle Mazur [00:24:02]: Yeah. Yeah. Oh, another question I had about your email because I'm interested in this. Are you like, when you're, sending your welcome sequence, are you asking them to respond, or are they just responding to the stories and the examples you're giving and just they see themselves and they wanna know more? Or do you feel like, hey. Do you have questions? You know?

Norma Frahn [00:24:22]: I always gotta wrap it up with always the offer. If you have a question or if this is resonating or not, reply back. Just hit reply. Send me an email. Yeah. And once I started doing that regularly, it really, really helped.

Norma Frahn [00:24:39]: And then I then now that I had a little bit of a bank of responses from people, I started, like, kinda cutting out their questions and putting it in the PS. Hey. By the way, another person I forget how I word it. Another person in the mind, body, and plate world asked this question. I thought maybe it's on your mind, and then I did, like, a little q and a snippet at the bottom of the email. Oh. And that's working out really well. So I'm just trying to find all these ways to keep connecting the dots, but in a very personal way.

Norma Frahn [00:25:11]: I had kinda had to drop all this stuff that I'd collected from all the Googlers about how to be a marketer and just start talking to people. Like like a human.

Michelle Mazur [00:25:25]: I know. I think, Seth Godin has this beautiful definition of marketing that is just basically, like, one human saying to another person, like, hey. I made this thing for you. What do you think? And how really it's just, like, relationship and communication. And somehow we've gotten lost that it needs to like, it has to be like a hook and have emojis and

Norma Frahn [00:25:50]: Oh my gosh.

Michelle Mazur [00:25:51]: It has to be on social media.

Norma Frahn [00:25:53]: All the things. My brain is quite logical and and very I don't know. I like systems and processes. So I had a or still have, and it's tucked away now, a big library of templates, all the ways to market. None of them worked, and they all felt terrible. So just start talking to people.

Norma Frahn [00:26:15]: I think that would probably my best advice. It's the best thing that I ever did was just stop all that nonsense and just talk to people.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:23]: Alright. So now that you have your messaging more dialed in and you've cut way, way, way, way back on social media, how do you feel about marketing your business now?

Norma Frahn [00:26:36]: Like I said, I'm having fun. I'm enjoying it. I actually I don't know if anybody else has said this, but I'm kinda liking it. I'm having fun with it. It doesn't feel like work anymore. It doesn't feel like this mountain that I'm never gonna get to the top of. It's just something I do now. And I know I'll get better at it as I go.

Norma Frahn [00:26:56]: I'm just I know I'm just scratching the surface, but I actually enjoy it. It's just, like I said, part of my daily interactions with people.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:05]: Yeah. Well and I think you're saying something really important. I think Michelle Marquis Deveau has talked about this too. It's like marketing is just one of those things you do. Right? It's it's on the list. It's how we have a sustainable business. That's how we find new people, new clients to have conversations with.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:24]: And when we stop making it, I feel like sometimes we make marketing mean a whole lot. Like, it's a reflection of us. It's a reflection of our work versus, like, it's this thing that I have to do. And sometimes it works well, and sometimes it doesn't. And sometimes I have to figure out what makes it work. But I feel like we put a lot of pressure on, like, this has to be the thing. And if it doesn't

Norma Frahn [00:27:46]: Yeah.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:47]: It means something about me.

Norma Frahn [00:27:49]: Yeah. And I would always look at it. Well, why is it working for them, and why can't I make it work? And it was kind of like I use this with my clients, actually. It felt to me like I was walking around in somebody else's shoes all day. I was trying to do something that didn't fit me, and it was uncomfortable, and it felt miserable. And once I stopped doing that and just started talking to people as myself, all that went away.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:20]: I love it. Alright, Norma. Where can people find you or get your amazing free offer?

Norma Frahn [00:28:28]: The best place is my website, and it's normafrahncoaching.com. And if you're so inclined to go to my very sparse social pages because I do still go there every now and again. Same same kinda handle at Norma Frahn Coaching. That's on Facebook and Instagram.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:48]: Alright. Well, Norma, we will hook that up into the show notes. And thank you so much for sharing, like, why marketing has sucked and the decisions you have made to make it more fun. Oh my gosh.

Norma Frahn [00:29:05]: Well, I have to thank you and the Expert Up Club because it's really helped me get dialed in, especially on the messaging. So thank you so much for that.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:13]: You are so welcome. Alright. Thank you so much. And everyone, go check out Norma's site. If you are interested in her pause method, that sounds like a fantastic way to help with emotional eating. This was such a fun interview with Norma. What I really enjoyed is that she's finding a lot of fun and joy in her marketing after it has sucked for so long. And this was a really good listen if your business is currently a side hustle because there are so many demands on your time.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:00]: So here are the things I took away. Number 1, the importance of having a core message. So when Norma focused in on the idea of un-dieting, that became the throughline for her work. So now everything that Norma talks about goes back to this idea of un-marketing. And once you find that throughline, you're really creating this seamless opportunity or this seamless experience when people find your work because they know exactly what you're about from the moment they discover you to the moment they decide to work with you. The second big takeaway, belief shifts. I love that Norma's messaging has really focused in on the belief shifts she needs to create in order to get people to work with her. Because she's in an industry that has societal indoctrination.

Michelle Mazur [00:31:18]: Right? And so she needs to shift people's perspectives before they are ready to work with her. And the final takeaway, you don't have to stop posting on social media altogether. I think there are many people out there who hear me talking about without social media saying, like, you never use it again. And some of us, that's great. We don't wanna be on social media. And others of us can use it, but it's just not a core part of our marketing strategy. It's something that we do every once in a while when it is supportive of our business, but we're not actively growing it. We're not actively posting there.

Michelle Mazur [00:32:06]: It's not anything that we are tracking that actually leads to revenue for us. And I think it's so freeing when we can use social media as a support tool versus a core part of our marketing strategy. The bottom line is when you eliminate the shit that's not working, social media, enormous case, marketing is actually effective. And surprise, when it's effective, you start enjoying it more.

Michelle Mazur [00:32:40]: If the Make Marketing Suck Less pod is making your marketing more effective so that your clients can find and hire you, please share the show with a friend. The easiest way to do that is through pod link. You can find the show at pod.link/rebel, and that page will allow anyone you share the show with to subscribe and start listening in their favorite podcast player.

That's pod.link/rebel.

The Make Marketing Suck Less podcast is a production of Communication Rebel. Our production coordinator is Jessica Gulley-Ward. The podcast is edited by Steven Mills, our executive producer is me, Dr. Michelle Mazur.

The make marketing suck less podcast is recorded on the unseated traditional lands of the Coast Salish Peoples, specifically the first people of Seattle, the Duwamish people, original stewards of the land, past, and present.