Make Marketing Suck Less

Zoa Conner [00:00:00]: “And so figuring out how to explain what you do in ways that resonate with other people and connects them to what they're feeling right now is tricky.”

Michelle Mazur [00:00:19]: Welcome to Make Marketing Suck Less. The podcast that knows marketing is freaking hard, especially when you're a solo business owner trying to juggle it all. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, author of the 3 Word Rebellion and founder of the Expert Up Club. Forget the latest marketing fads and tactics promising social media stardom. I'm here with research-backed strategies to help you clarify your message and get twice as effective with your marketing. And while I can't promise you'll ever love marketing, I'm here. to make you hate it a tiny bit less.

Michelle Mazur [00:00:59]: Have you ever been talking to someone explaining what you do and they're staring at you like you're speaking a language they've never even heard before and don't even know how to begin to comprehend? Please know you're not alone. So many brilliant business owners struggle to connect with their clients, not because they lack knowledge, but because they're stuck in expert speak. It's like we think, if I can just give you all the information, then that will be enough.

Michelle Mazur [00:01:42]: You'll be wowed, and you'll book a call with me. Unfortunately, that's not how it works. And what's really happening is how we can help them, how our expertise benefits them and their lives is getting lost in translation. Zoa Conner a functional health and wellness expert who helps you feel better, not older, through personalized lifestyle guidance and education, knows this firsthand. Zoa’s got a physics PhD and the brain to go along with it, and she uses that reasoning and her creativity, plus her impressive toolbox of skills and certifications to help you heal your body. Now if you're thinking, wow, sounds impressive, but sounds like a lot. Yes. That was Zoa's struggle.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:50]: And when I first met her, her message was getting lost in translation. And during our interview, she'll tell you how she overcame that and how it's made marketing suck less for her. So let's dive in. Welcome to Make Marketing Suck Less. I'm so excited that you are joining us today.

Zoa Conner [00:03:09]: I'm happy to be here too.

Michelle Mazur [00:03:10]: Yeah. So I always start these interviews with the same question. What makes marketing suck for you? Like, what has felt hard or heavy for you when it comes to marketing?

Zoa Conner [00:03:26]: Everything. So since my background is a university professor and a physicist with a PhD, I am really good at explaining things and instructing people and guiding people, not particularly well versed at convincing them to do something. And marketing is all about presenting yourself in a way that makes people think that they should give you money and hire you for your work. So that persuasive aspect of it is hard. I tend to just wanna tell people and assume that that will be enough.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:00]: Yeah. It's like I do this great thing. Isn't that enough?

Zoa Conner [00:04:03]: Isn't it obvious that you should hire me because I know all these things? And the answer is, well, it kinda depends on how you phrase it. Right? So I feel like it's it's kind of like cocktail party small talk, which is not my forte at all. And perhaps it comes from having been a physicist in my past life before I became a business owner. And one of the best ways to stop a conversation in its tracks with a brand new person is to tell them you're a physicist. So I learned pretty quickly to not tell people what I did, but to focus on something else. But that is the opposite of marketing.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:51]: Yeah. Especially when you're talking to people. And I should mention, and I should have you tell people, like, you are no longer a physicist. You are doing something completely different.

Zoa Conner [00:05:01]: My brain is still a physicist. However, now I am in the area of functional wellness. So I use my sciency brain and my reasoning skills and my, disbelief in some of the things that I see and read to help people figure out how they can feel better, not older, simply by making better choices about what they do for themselves on a daily basis. So what that means is that I need to convince them that I know what I'm doing, and then I'm able to help them, but I need to speak their language, not my language. So that's where the messaging work has really helped because I am very aware that not everyone has a sciency bend. And

Zoa Conner [00:05:54]: People do need encouragement and persuasion, which means which words you choose and how you present it is almost more important than whether or not you know what you're talking about.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:08]: Yes. And I think I feel like experts are really deeply resonate with what you're saying, because there is this, like, I know my stuff and you should see that about me. And part of this is, like, how do we make our expertise applicable to people who can really benefit from it?

Zoa Conner [00:06:33]: Right. And so figuring out how to explain what you do in ways that resonate with other people and connects them to what they're feeling right now is tricky. Right?

Michelle Mazur [00:06:47]: So what has been your journey in figuring that out? Because it it started long ago before you and I met.

Zoa Conner [00:06:57]: It did. But on a realistic you know, if we go over the time scale, my business opened a few months before March 2020. So I only had 3 months in business before the pandemic closed things down and made people not want to leave their houses. So I didn't really even get started with anything marketing oriented until the pandemic when it was electrons only. Whatever you could do on a computer from your house. So I, you know, researched and read and was like, okay. Well, all the things that I had done as an employee for someone else are no longer viable options. You know, local events and open house, bring a friend, those things that those were not happening.

Zoa Conner [00:07:52]: So I decided that what I could do from home was focus on SEO.

Michelle Mazur [00:07:56]: Okay.

Zoa Conner [00:07:56]: So I could put things on my website. I could make that really snazzy and informative, and then I could use SEO to try to bring people there because everybody was on their computer all the time. Even when they didn't want to be.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:12]: We really didn't have a choice.

Zoa Conner [00:08:14]: Right. So that was what I did for quite a while, you know, trying to figure out what are people looking for that will somehow bring them to me for what I offer.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:26]: And how was that working for you?

Zoa Conner [00:08:29]: Well, because I was focused primarily on local people, One of my main services that I started with was movement education. So yoga, Pilates, things like that. Those are pretty easy to be searchable for in your local geographic area. So that was that was pretty easy. Right?

Michelle Mazur [00:08:52]: Oh, that's excellent.

Zoa Conner [00:08:53]: Look up a yoga studio near me, and I would pop up and, you know, they would either come and check me out or go, whatever they were interested in doing, figure out if I was the right person for them. And then when I expanded to more things beyond that, more in the functional wellness, more in the nutrition, more in detox, bio identical hormones, brain health, those kind of things. That's when it got tricky because people aren't searching for the things that my brain thinks they should be searching for. And so that is when I kind of was like, well, okay. This is not enough because they're not searching for what I want them to.

Zoa Conner [00:09:39]: So that means that now I need to think about the language more. And there's the messaging part. So that's why I met you.

Michelle Mazur [00:09:48]: Yeah. So how have you gone about figuring out the language? Oh, before I ask you that, I just wanna point out something that if you're listening to this and you are a local business owner, I think local search is something that is often overlooked but could be utilized. And you also have to make sure that people are searching for you. Right? Or that they're able to find you because you're in their brain. So I'm wondering how did you figure out what they were searching for? Like, how did you dial in that messaging?

Zoa Conner [00:10:26]: Well, first thing was talking to the most recent new clients. You know, you came in my door thinking that you needed yoga, but then we went this other direction. So okay. So they're searching for some basic things, you know. Someone told them yoga help with anxiety. Someone told them Pilates helps with pelvic floor and incontinence. They're not searching for those things, but when they search for what their friend or their doctor told them, then they find me and they realize that, oh, I can help in more ways than that, then they know they're in the right place.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:09]: Yes. So they will be googling something like pelvic floor incontinence exercise or Pilates, and

Zoa Conner [00:11:17]: they go into you know, when they search for those kind of things, you know, you search for pelvic floor exercise and, you know, take away all the sex terms, then you're gonna find all these big companies or these Yeah. Doctors or medical sites. I, as a small solopreneur, is I'm gonna have a hard time being found in that search. So I decided that, well, I still need to be the person who's found from a local search if I'm looking for a local clientele.

Zoa Conner [00:11:52]: But I need them when they when they end up on my site for yoga or Pilates or my home page. It needs to be obvious right up front that it is more than just a yoga studio or more than just a nutritionist. Right? So there is that that blending of how do you explain the the whole shebang that I offer in a paragraph or less on every page.

Michelle Mazur [00:12:23]: That's not challenging at all.

Zoa Conner [00:12:24]: Not at all. Right? Because they might end up on the yoga page, but they're there for anxiety or mental health or stress relief or, tight hips and low back or any number of things. And someone told them yoga helped, and I need to figure out what do I tell them to make them think that they should talk to me and that they're this is the place because we can address them from 5 different avenues all at the same time without them going to 5 different practitioners.

Michelle Mazur [00:12:54]: Yeah. So it's like, yes, yoga can help, and there are other things that can help as well. So we can give you a more, like, holistic solution. So would you say then your customer journey for people, it kinda begins with them looking for that yoga person, finding you and then having their awareness expanded about the options that are available to them? We'll be right back after this quick break. Are you ready to stop doing marketing you hate and start focusing on what actually works for your business? Because guess what, my friend? There is no one right way to market your business, and you've got so many options about how you want to market. So that's why I created the Market Like an Expert 7-Day Crash Course to create a do-less but better marketing strategy that creates demands for your offers and your expertise while eliminating marketing you shouldn't be doing. It's time to discover your options and create a marketing plan that doesn't suck the life out of you.

Michelle Mazur [00:14:12]: So sign up at doctormichellemazerdot com/mle. That's the letters m l e, or open your podcast app and click on Market Like an Expert. Now back to our interview.

Zoa Conner [00:14:29]: I would say yes. So once they end up at my website, then the ones that I hear from that schedule a new client consult or send me a message with a question, those are people who were like, so I spent, like, an hour on your website. And, you know, I read this and I read that, and then I was like, I have to talk to this lady. So those are people who are gonna resonate very well with me. Right? Someone who ends up on my side and is like, you know, do you take insurance or, what's the cheapest class you have? You know, those kind of people are not necessarily looking for my specialties and expertise. Right? But a pregnant woman who's had a prolapse from a previous pregnancy and she's just looking to feel good, she's gonna go, oh, okay.

Zoa Conner [00:15:25]: This this chick is is serious. She she can help me in a couple ways.

Michelle Mazur [00:15:30]: Yeah. Well and I feel like in some ways, you're making your website bingeable.

Zoa Conner [00:15:35]: I would love for people to hang out there and just go from thread to thread and service to service, you know, and build confidence in me. And then You know, let's figure out what your starting point is. Because when I do meet with a new client, oftentimes they're like, so now there's so many things I don't know what to ask for. So our first consultation is where are we going to begin? What is the most pressing matter? What is the thing that you feel like you would like to have go away first? What is the most accessible financially or time wise? You know, what is the plan? And then we spend a month experimenting.

Michelle Mazur [00:16:21]: Yeah. Making sure that's the right plan.

Zoa Conner [00:16:23]: Yeah. Because, you know, I might have an idea, but most of the time, there is more than one way to get to success. And what the way that you think you will get to success is oftentimes not the best, not the most efficient, and sometimes is really inappropriate.

Michelle Mazur [00:16:42]: That is such a good point. Well and I could see because, you know, I've been on your website a whole lot. Like, yeah, like, you can go down this rabbit hole and you think like, oh, that's the thing I need. But then you book a call and you're like, oh, maybe it is. Maybe it's not. Because you're going to see things as an expert, you're going to see things differently when they come to you to have that conversation.

Zoa Conner [00:17:04]: Right. But, you know, I will give them multiple ways that we could begin, you know, and see what they think about each of those ways. And I'm and I and it's easier, of course, if they have spent some time poking around on the website. It's much harder

Zoa Conner [00:17:21]: If someone has just gotten my phone number and called me and have no idea what I can do. Right? Because those conversations tend to go much more along the lines of, well, when do you have yoga and how much is a class? And it's like, okay. That stuff is on the website. And if that's all you need, then you probably aren't actually gonna come see me.

Zoa Conner [00:17:47]: You're not gonna be smart. Many other choices. Right? My place is small. It's intimate. You cannot hide from my eyes in a movement class. You are going to get love and attention and a pillow put on under your head if you forgot it. You know, it it's not like a big class with 20 people where you could just do your own thing.

Michelle Mazur [00:18:14]: Yeah. You are making such a good distinction that I want to pull out about it's kind of that readiness idea. Like, how do you know if somebody is ready to work with you? And for you, if they have spent time slunking around on your website, reading what you have to offer, and then they book a call, it's like, alright, they are sufficiently warmed up. And in some ways, they've kind of already convinced themselves that, alright, she's an expert and she can help me with the thing that I need help with. Versus the person who just picks up the phone and calls you because they've found you on a Google search, hasn't looked at your website. Like, that is a super duper cold lead and probably not the right person.

Michelle Mazur [00:19:02]: So your website is really having this function of nurturing people and getting them ready for that consult.

Zoa Conner [00:19:09]: Yeah. The website is really all about nurturing prospective clients, but also about supporting existing clients. Because a lot of times when I have a client with a problem that they haven't brought up before or a new thing that comes up, I can direct them, you know, So, oh, you're you're pondering, cataract surgery. Have you read my blog? Have you read my article about, eyes yet? Or you're you're pondering that laparoscopic knee surgery because there's some little bone bits in there. I can't fix that. But I can help you make sure it doesn't happen again. And have you read my my article about preparing for surgery?

Michelle Mazur [00:19:54]: Yeah. And it's great because, like, I think some of the times what we don't realize is that the content that we are creating can actually be a great, like, tool to use as warming up clients and getting them ready for that invitation into the sales process. Like, you're using this content in a very strategic way of saying like, oh, you have this going on. I wrote a blog post. Let me send it to you. And that way, it's like, oh, she she gets it. Right? Like, she already had something for me that she could send to me, and I could read and understand her worldview and her perspective better.

Zoa Conner [00:20:36]: Right. It skips the small talk because then the small talk is happening with the electrons on a computer and in the comfort of their own home. And if they don't care for it, then they don't have to contact me further. If they don't get the vibe in a good way from the website, they're not gonna vibe well from me as a person either. Right? Because I I write all my own copy. So every single word on my website is from me. That is how I speak to my clients.

Zoa Conner [00:21:07]: So if it speaks to you, then awesome. And if it doesn't, I'm not sure what to tell you about that.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:14]: Well, I mean, it's yeah. I'm probably not for you.

Zoa Conner [00:21:18]: Yeah. You know? And when I have a new client consult, it's the same thing. And I was like, so, you know, this is our chance to figure out if we connect well and whether you're ever coming back. Right? Or in the future. Right? Because things happen.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:38]: And and I really love that sales idea or that process that you take people through. Because one of the things like, I just got an email today, and somebody was just like, you know, I'm interested in the Expert Up Club, but I don't wanna waste your time. And I'm like, you getting on my calendar and us talking about the possibility whether now or in the future, that doesn't feel like a waste of time for me. And it made me it kinda made me feel sad.

Zoa Conner [00:22:08]: If they didn't sign up for the Expert Club, they might feel like they wasted your time. But that's usually them, not you.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:17]: Yeah. Exactly. And it's like, I like talking to people, so I don't have a problem with it. Like, it doesn't feel like, because every time I go in, probably similar to what you're talking about, like, every time I go into the sales situation, whether they say yes or no, I get to learn about them. I get to learn something about what maybe they didn't understand about the work I do or their own situation. Like, I get more and more clarity as I talk to more people.

Zoa Conner [00:22:46]: Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:47]: And I think that's an underutilized way of, like, honing in on your message.

Zoa Conner [00:22:54]: Well, I do think it definitely helps with that sales process in the, choosing your words kind of a realm, like you said, because

Zoa Conner [00:23:04]: You might speak to someone in a different way based on what their needs are or what they're telling you. Right? You know, one of my recent new client consults was, you know, very excited to meet me and spent a lot of time on my website and, you know, this was going to work very well until she looked at the prices. Okay. Well, then there that means that it's a matter of priorities. Right? And financial wellness is important.

Zoa Conner [00:23:42]: It's part of my philosophy for my business, but that has to go both ways. The client's wellness and mine. So when when she is ready to reproportion things or pay off the bills from school close because school just started, all those kind of things, I'll still be here.

Michelle Mazur [00:24:03]: I love it. So one of the things I want to point out as we start wrapping up this conversation, like, your marketing strategy just feels so clear and doable to me. Like, you're getting in front of new people, but with SEO, then they come to your website, and they are engaging and nurturing with it and reading your articles and then getting into a conversation with you. How does it feel to have such, like, a simple marketing strategy like that?

Zoa Conner [00:24:41]: Well, now it's amusing to me that you say that simple because it still feels big to me. And so but it has evolved. And, you know, it used to be, of course, I was brand new and was eager to have anyone who would wanna come at all even if they didn't seem like a good fit. But, you know, I figured it out. This is one of those new business things. Since my business turns 5 at the end of this year, I still feel like a business baby. But that's okay.

Zoa Conner [00:25:15]: Because that means a lots of opportunity for learning and I do love to learn. But I do feel like the refinement of pairing down to just the things that are actually working has been really important.

Zoa Conner [00:25:30]: Well, the SEO is important. I'm not I I feel like I need to go back and do a little bit more now that I

Zoa Conner [00:25:36]: Made changes to other things. But I've been focusing on the words and the messaging and trying to get my point across effectively before anyone has gotten far enough down the page that they feel like they've decided already. That it's not the right place for them. So getting things in the right order and, the right kind of tone. And so for that, the work we've done through the Expert Up Club has been a big help.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:07]: And I have to say, like, I have noticed how much you've how much you've improved over the past year with, like, the messaging on your website and finding those words. Because now when I, like, review some copy for you, I'm like, oh, this is really good. I would just move things around a little bit.

Zoa Conner [00:26:26]: So I feel like that's a win. Definitely. Throughout the course of the last year with the Expert Up Club, though, I did definitely feel multiple times that everyone else had it easier. They were just selling the one thing, the one service, the one main focus, and I've got, like, 8.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:53]: Yes. You do. You have a lot.

Zoa Conner [00:26:54]: Everyone else I I got I kept feeling like, you know, here we are. We're in, you know, a messaging sprint or an a workshop, and they're focusing on the one thing. And now I've gotta go do it 7 more times for the other things. But it got easier as I learned and as I got feedback. So then I started being able to just get feedback on one topic, one service, one area, and then being able to do a pretty decent job on the rest of them.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:29]: Yes. You've definitely figured out, like, what works, how, like, individual client groups that might be attracted to, like, different services you have are talking about those. I know I know you listen a lot to your clients, which is exactly what we need to do with marketing is, like, listening to what people are telling us. And then you're doing a great job of, like, translating that into the copy on your website. Because, yeah, the last thing you submitted, I read it, and I was like, well, this top part is, like, spot on. You have nailed it. Like, yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:08]: Your client's gonna land there and be like, oh, she's talking to me. She's talking to the exact problems that I have, which is, like, where we wanna get with our messaging. And so just having that system of, like, knowing what to look for can be a really powerful thing and make your marketing suck a little bit less too.

Zoa Conner [00:28:29]: So as someone who tends to like to do things when I'm good at them already. Right? The more I feel like I am doing a decent job, the more likely I am to want to do it again. So in that sense, marketing is getting easier because I am improving and feeling like it's actually working.

Zoa Conner [00:28:56]: Nothing is fun when it feels like it's not in your control.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:00]: No. And marketing is one of those things where, like, we can control what we say and how we put the message out there. And we can try to do all the things we think are going to set us up for success. But at the end of the day, how people react is out of our control.

Zoa Conner [00:29:22]: Yeah. However, I know that my messaging work is working because I no longer get calls or contacts from people who are just looking for that cheap yoga class or who are just looking for an occasional trip in the sauna. I'm getting people with the kind of problems that I would like to work with.

Michelle Mazur [00:29:46]: That is the best feedback that you can get, and that is the best way to know that your marketing is working, that the people who are showing up are the right people, and they're ready for all the brilliance that you have to offer them.

Zoa Conner [00:30:04]: I agree. So I feel like that by itself is a very good feeling.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:12]: I love hearing that. Alright. So so why don't you tell people where they can find you and connect and see your website and go down the rabbit hole?

Zoa Conner [00:30:23]: So my business name is Zen and Vitality with ZOA, and the website is zenandvitality.com. And while my business does exist on social media, you won't find me there. But it's there to make sure that you know that I am actually a real person.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:42]: Alright. I love that use of social media.

Zoa Conner [00:30:47]: I have had clients who've had bad experiences with other businesses tell me that they checked me out, made sure I was an actual person, see if I if they knew anyone who knew me. So I'm not gonna take those sites down. It built confidence enough for them to contact me.

Michelle Mazur [00:31:06]: That is such a good point, and I don't think we think about that when we think about social media. Like, oh, I have to post. I have to do all these things, but sometimes it's just enough to show people that you are an actual human being.

Zoa Conner [00:31:21]: It's a tiny, tiny bit of word-of-mouth. Yes. Someone else has somehow vetted me.

Michelle Mazur [00:31:30]: Yes. Oh my gosh. So true. Alright. So, thank you so very much for this interview. I really appreciated your insights on messaging and your marketing strategy, and I know you'll help other people make their marketing suck less through this conversation.

Zoa Conner [00:31:48]: I hope so too. You've helped me a lot. Thank you.

Michelle Mazur [00:31:54]: Messaging is hard. I don't care if you're a PhD in physics like Zoa or someone with loads of experience. Seeing how our expertise relates to someone's life and how it can benefit them is so very difficult, but it is a skill that you can learn. And Zoa has spent the past year learning that skill of messaging. I firmly believe messaging is something you can get better and better and better at if you have the foundational knowledge, which, PS, is what we do in the Expert Up Club, and there's still time to join us there. So if you're interested, go to expert up dot club and book a private tour.

Michelle Mazur [00:32:49]: But not only that, the other things that I loved about this interview was also the whole discussion about creating her website as this bingeable marketing asset and how she was letting the website do the small talk for her. And if you're an introvert, there is nothing worse than doing small talk. It can be it's so very draining on your energy. But if your site can do that heavy lifting and people can basically nurture themselves and get familiar with how you work, they are going to be ready to buy from you when they jump on a consultation call. I also love the fact that we talked about how her website is this phenomenal tool for weeding people out because Zoa is so very clear on who is not for her. Plus, she is running a very small and intimate practice. She's not your 24 hour fitness of yoga studios. Like, she wants a certain clientele, and the website can weed those people out.

Michelle Mazur [00:34:01]: And finally, I love the conversation that we had about how her marketing is cyclical, and it's something she has to come back to. Like, we were talking about her SEO and how that really got her business off the ground, especially during the pandemic. But now that her messaging is dialed in, it's something that she gets to revisit again. Because marketing is never a one and done, we always have to go back and tweak and optimize it to make sure that it is working for us. So I hope you enjoyed this episode, and stay tuned. I've got some special things planned for October.

Michelle Mazur [00:34:44]: If the Make Marketing Suck Less pod is making your marketing more effective so that your clients can find and hire you, please share the show with a friend. The easiest way to do that is through pod link. You can find the show at pod.link/rebel, and that page will allow anyone you share the show with to subscribe and start listening in their favorite podcast player.

That's pod.link/rebel.

The Make Marketing Suck Less podcast is a production of Communication Rebel. Our production coordinator is Jessica Gulley-Ward. The podcast is edited by Steven Mills, our executive producer is me, Dr. Michelle Mazur.

The make marketing suck less podcast is recorded on the unseated traditional lands of the Coast Salish peoples, specifically the first people of Seattle, the Duwamish people, original stewards of the land, past, and present.