Make Marketing Suck Less

It's frustrating when words fail to capture the work you do for your clients.

Sure, you may have your, I help X with Y so they can Z statement, but deep down, you know, that statement doesn't actually capture the real results of your work. When that happens, you end up getting lumped in with all the other people who do what you do, even though you know you're radically different, our clients know you're radically different.

When I first met today's guest, she told me she wrote bios, but her bios were so much more than just a bio. In fact, she was so much more than a bio writer. What she was creating for clients were these heartfelt stories that captured the person's essence and the why behind what they do.

Even though she worked with words, she didn't have the right words that positioned her as so much more than a storyteller or bio writer until she found her 3 Word Rebellion, which is “Uncage your Epic Credential”.

On today's show Caroline Mays and I talk about why finding her 3 Word Rebellion was so important to her business, we also discussed why so many messages online sound exactly the same and how the right message can actually improve and even expand your business model into other areas.

But before we jump into the discussion, let me tell you a little bit about Caroline Mays. She is a writer and the creator of Switchblade Lemonade, a defiantly unorthodox image crafting and bio writing salon that changed the meaning of the word “bio” by elevating its purpose from obligatory drivel to Epic Credential designed to open doors and command an audience so professionals can speak over the noise. She insists that the average about me paragraph is a personality killer and identity eraser and a creative wasteland. And personally, I couldn't agree more. 

The stories that made us are robust, complicated, and deserving of our attention as they contain all the necessary material for a bold, enlightened personal brand. With aggressive creativity, intelligent observation, and unapologetic audacity, Caroline helps clients unleash true, focused, irresistibly compelling biographical art that sells their work instead of uninspired predictable content that notoriously sells them short. 

So, if you are feeling so much more than your current title or your I help statement, then you don't want to miss today's show. So enjoy this conversation with Caroline and I'll circle back at the end with a few key takeaways.  

Michelle: [00:03:49] Hey, Caroline. Welcome to the Rebel Uprising podcast. I am super excited to chat with you today. 

Caroline: [00:04:00] Excited to be here. Thanks so much for having me, Michelle, 

Michelle: [00:04:03] you are welcome because you and I are fellow travelers on this communication path and you have one of my favorite 3 Word Rebellions that I've helped co-create -- Uncage Your Epic Credential.

So why don't you start off by telling us what is an Epic Credential and why should we uncaged it? 

Caroline: [00:04:29] Oh God. Okay. So there's like several stories involved here, but the quick and dirty is an ethic code credential is essentially it's the biography of your life condensed into a single page.

And obviously since it's going to be a page, you have to choose wisely what you're going to say. And in the business context that most of us are in, it's going to be crafted for a certain audience, and we're so used to presenting ourselves and cover letters and resumes and LinkedIn profiles.

And so these are very formal, right? Ways to talk about yourself. Or when we attempt to be creative, we get cute about it. Like there's a little joke and then people talk about their dogs or whatever. And so those of us that are seeking platforms and brands. We need something that instead of being a list of accomplishments and brownie points is this bite sized internet biography.

So we get a person, that is real and human and has ideas that drive them. And they're also pretty bad ass at the same time. 

Michelle: [00:05:55] So it's really a big alternative to like the normal bio about page, right. 

Caroline: [00:06:03] Yes. I always tell people, when I'm working with them, this will probably live on your about page all though there's lots of things that people do with them. Like they make, they use it as a video script. Right? That's part of the reason that's part of what launched my career is having a video made out of my Epic Credential.

But what you want to, it might live there, but it's like anything you and I were just talking about, it can't just be the stagnant thing on your website. Right. You have to keep talking about it and you have to keep sharing it and you have to keep diving into it and using it. And yeah. Yeah. And also like when I write these things, I'm sure it might live on your about page, but you can draw a line, like design wise after you've already you they've read your Epic Credential, there's a call to action, and then you can talk about other stuff. People feel like everything has to be crammed in there and there's lots of creative things you can mention, 

Michelle: [00:07:11] yeah. Since you got started with this like you had a video of your Epic Credential that went viral, why don't you take us back to that moment when you were basically creating your own Epic Credential and how all of this came about? Like what was happening? 

Caroline: [00:07:31] Oh God. So there's a couple of two things here. One is that. So I built my niche on bios, right. And that came about because I was. I guess some really killer advice, essentially from our grand madam of the internet, Ms. Ash Ambirge.

Michelle: [00:07:52] She is a past podcast guest. I love Ash. 

Caroline: [00:07:55] I know. Who doesn't love Ash. And so she, yeah, she gave me a piece of invaluable advice and she had. I had taken one of her classes and I had asked her, I was just going to create this often for writing bios. And she went to my website and just blew the wind into my sales, like with just being, very complimentary about my writing.

And she was just like, dude, I'm normally not this prescriptive, but I think you need to, like knuckle down on this. And I was like, okay, cool. So that was The nascent beginnings, I'm just like, here's this particular niche that was just me taking advice. But just as a person, like I've always had an issue with the way that.

We have to talk about ourselves. Like I said, in that resume cover letter type of way, I just said just as a person looking for jobs in the past, found it very offensive, and insulting, and job descriptions are really stupid. When you're looking at things, you're like, what are they even mean by that?

So just I've always, and just as a writer, I've just always been really testy about language. Right. So anyway, that's where the original ideas stem from, and just knowing that people have such a hard time writing about themselves and their work. Right. But the issue that I was having is that even after I created this niche and was doing this, is that.

I was realizing that these weren't just bio's and I was having people, my clients tell me, like, this is so much more than a bio. Right. But, there was a narrative involved. There was a story involved, like I said, I had that movie made out of or that video made out of my bio.

People were coming to me for bio scripts, right. And so I had this bio word that I was using and it wasn't quite hitting the mark. Right. And then there was the storytelling element involved and I would. I hated using the word storytelling and the word story. Cause it's just rampant out there.

Right. So it's like, yeah, I'm on Instagram. And it's like, oh, people's quilts. Tell a story, building stories, logos, tell stories. And I'm just like, what do you mean by that? And I think it would behoove of every single person in business to stop and think about the words that they're using to tell a story brand message and really ask how that applies to them and their work.

Right. So anyway, just in my efforts to, or in my struggle to marry these words, right. That's where, the Epic Credential was born, so to speak. 

Michelle: [00:10:52] Yeah. And we'll hook up the link to your video in the show notes of this podcast, because I think once people see it, they're going to be like, oh, because that video you created, went viral and was picked up everywhere.

Caroline: [00:11:08] Yes, it was. And it was an amazing experience. Yeah. And we could talk about this. It was heartbreaking in a way, because I was under priced and I got booked out for an entire year. And so anyway, that was another reason that I had to slow down and back up and rethink what I was actually doing because, it's like, it turned into that one and done rotating door of clients.

Right. And it needs to be a much more in-depth conversation in order to not just write one, but in order to go out and use it afterwards. 

Michelle: [00:11:50] Okay. Yes, because yeah, there seems like there's this two-step process to creating an Epic Credential that it's number one. Maybe there's a three-step processes.I'm talking about this, it's like, there's the in-depth interviewing that you have to do in order to find that story and what the story is here.

Then there's the actual writing of the story and then there's the implementation of that story. and at any one of those points the clients could go off the rails pretty easily.

Caroline: [00:12:26] Yes. And yes, it's very true. Yeah, but best case scenario, it's like, they get it, they get their Epic Credential. I just got a testimonial the other day. I was working with a writer, and that's another thing. Some people might feel they can't hire a writer because they are writers.

Right. And this person wrote an entire book. And and so anyway, she's essentially working on her platform as a writer. She's a successful business woman, but her testimonial was like, you really got to the most of this story and it, I'm going to write about myself in a more impactful way because now they're doing the review, like the revision part of the books, so anyway, having done this work, it's like, okay, I need to go back and really, really say this a little bit differently.

So anyway, that's just, one of the benefits of doing it is like, whatever you're already doing, you can actually just pull out what you need to even more, and really tell the story, the long form version of the story that you're writing.

Michelle: [00:13:44] So it feels like there are, like, when you do this work to find like your story, your Epic Credential that you can use in business, or for your speaking platform or your author platform, it feels like there's like the short version of probably a medium sized version and then the longer version. 

Caroline: [00:14:06] Yeah.

Yes. So when we do the Epic Credential, I part of that package that I built is we also do a media bio. And that is like the even, even more the bite sized version. Like those can still be very creative without being like, you'd see. And so there's that, and that looks like, lengthwise looks like, like, your normal bio that you see.

Right. And then this Epic Credential version, like I say, is about a page. Let's say if you put it in like a document and then there's like your memoirs, right. Which would be like, like your super duper long form book, size version of that. Right. It's almost like how do you get your book into a page and how do you use that as a tool, a positioning tool, which is essentially, what it is.

Michelle: [00:15:03] If you think about it, like when I'm thinking about it's like we all come to the work that we do with all of this experience and expertise and our own background of how we got to where we are and yeah. That could fit like a whole book. And yet that the power of the Epic Credential really comes when you start distilling it into that story that can be used as the media bio, or for your about page or  any time you speak about what you do and how you do it.

Caroline: [00:15:36] Right and because it is so short form, it has to be very big. Ideally it would be very potent. Right. And so I don't know if people feel like, Ooh, I have the entire internet to just ramble. But it would really behoove us to get very succinct with our ideas so that they can be heard and put on blast in a very effective way. 

Michelle: [00:16:04] Yeah. And I think this goes back to what you were saying, that our words matter, what we say and how we say it, if we want to grab people's attention and have it remembered, we have to make an impact in their very busy brains.

Caroline: [00:16:24] Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And I, it's weird, when we were talking about this earlier or, we say that all the time, and I think people think they're being unique. I don't know if they do feel that way, but it's like, but you have to. It's very easy.I wrote a blog post about this somewhat recently to get brainwashed in the collective response. 

Michelle: To cut in very quickly because there is actually scientific support for this point that Caroline is making. Albert Bandura created a theory called Social Learning Theory. And basically the theory posits that when we are uncertain about how to act, what to say. What to do. We look to our peers, we look to the people we admire and we emulate what they're doing. And I think for many of us business owners, entrepreneurs, coaches, sometimes when we don't know what to say, we look at what everybody else is saying and we think, Hey, that must work. And that's the reason why so much of our messaging sounds the same these days. I'll let Caroline get back to it. 

Caroline: [00:17:58] It's like, you get hypnotized by the language that's out there and you haven't stopped to really consider what it is that you're doing and what it is exactly that you want people to comprehend and know about yourself and or your work.

Michelle: [00:18:17] It's funny, I recorded a podcast at the end of 2020, and that was like, The 10 marketing messages that need to drown in the sea of sameness.

And it's all of the like six figures, this scale, your business, live your best life, find your voice. Like it's just things we hear over and over again that don't do a good job at describing the work that we do in the world. 

Caroline: [00:18:43] Right. Yeah. And yeah, they never will. And I don't know if it's, so we were, I work with a lot of people who are coming out of corporate. They're coming out of just a kind of some kind of institution, right. As an institutionalized way of doing things could be, they could be coming out of academia too. Right. Yeah. And I feel like, In those environments, you need everyone to be on the same page and maybe there's some office politics involved, right.

And maybe it's just very important to play it safe. Right. And it's like, I think at least my people have a hard time shirking that responsibility to appease. And it's like, it's a mind shift to get it through your head. Like, no, really. You get to say whatever you want, and it's going to behoove you to consider how you say it.

And it might go against what other people are saying, but if that's what you believe, then you absolutely need to say it. Like you're not in office politics anymore. And yeah, it's a it's I think it's, I think it's residual from other, from being an employee. 

Michelle: [00:20:01] Yeah. And I was even thinking, as you were saying that yeah, residual from being an employee, but also like our education system teaches us just to regurgitate what the answer is.

So if some celebrity, entrepreneur is telling you to say this in order to make sales, you don't question it. You just say it the way they think you should say it because we're just. We're not really taught to think about the impact of our words or how we want to say something. 

Caroline: [00:20:29] Yes. Right. And we've been given the green light right by a celebrity marketer. You know what I mean? Like somebody that's that boss that we replaced with our actual boss. Yeah. We've been given the green light by them and then we're like, okay, this is what I should say. They said it. So it must be true. And I'm going to just say what they say.

And again, I think it's all pretty unconscious, I don't think people are like that, I'm just gonna repeat this and regurgitate what I just heard. But it is. I don't know. You got to challenge yourself and ask yourself, am I taking safety precautions here with my language?

Michelle: [00:21:14] Yes. Yes. So I have a question for you.

Your Epic Credential, the video goes viral. You book out for a year, you're vastly undercharging for what you're doing. How did you course correct that? 

Caroline: [00:21:31] Oh God. Okay. I really think about who was going to value this work at a more fair price point for myself. Yeah. And so it took me some time, a little time to correct the course because I had to find those people right. But in the meantime, I also needed to come up with something for the audience that I already had, and something that was within their budget. Yeah, which is why I started doing coaching or people who are confident enough in their own writing skills.

I was finding that people were, they wanted to write it themselves. Like they want to be able to produce their own content. Right. And they wanted their hands on it. Right. It feels a little more special that way. And perhaps it is. And so anyway, that was a way for not only for me to keep working with the people that I was working within a price point that was within their budget.

And it also freed me up to do that, to coach and to work with people, to take the writing off of my plate and give it to them, but also, keep my hands on it enough to help them through it. And so anyway, so it's been, I actually love doing it. It's just kinda, it's an offering that I enjoy.

It's been great. But I also still write for people, but I can be more selective as to who that is. And it has to be people who can afford it. 

Michelle: [00:23:21] Yes. And that's really smart to think about like, okay, who is in my audience and what is their budget? Because, we hear all this bullshit all the time on the internet about like, you should have a high ticket premium offer, and it does rule out a lot of your current audience.

Caroline: [00:23:42] Yes, it does. And it's very DIY culture, obviously starting your business. No one can start for you. Right. So we're doing something scary, right. To begin with and, you're trying to figure out how to make it all happen. Right. And doing your own copywriting, like let's say you just download a course, right?

And you pay a bunch of money to completely DIY. No, one's helping you. You just have information. You don't know if you're doing it right? No, you have no guidance. Maybe you're going to see your course creator in a Facebook group whenever they pop in. And you're probably not going to be on there at times that they pop in.

Right. And so it's very, you're very removed from the creator and you can't, you never know if you have done it. Right. And given that you aren't. A copywriter or let's say there's a lot of great writers, but they're not good. This isn't their strong suit. Right? Copy writing is its own little genre.

You probably didn't do it. Right. Or there's definitely things you could have done better. And and then maybe having someone write everything for you is completely out of your reach for right now. And so I feel like this is that sweet spot where you do have access to. To someone who knows what they're doing and you get to, but you also have to, do you know a lot of the writing yourself.

And so it's almost like, because we don't see a lot of that. I feel like it's like you either pay top dollar or here's my course. And, it's on demand and good luck with all that. And so I personally, when I'm looking for things out there that I need help with, like, I want some one-on-one attention.

Michelle: [00:25:40] Yes. Yeah. That's how I feel too. Like, I feel like there's all these like two and $3,000 courses and I'm like, but you don't really get access to anyone. 

Caroline: [00:25:53] Right. And so you have there's no, you're just creating a brand in a vacuum, which is what you've been doing from the beginning. And that you got to do something different.

And it's yeah, it might be a little bit more than just buying a DIY course. But it's going to be worth it to get that hands-on attention for sure. 

Michelle: [00:26:15] Yeah. So before we launch into the 3 Word Rebellion lightning round of questions --

What a-ha moments did you have while developing the Epic Credential into an offering that could really help other people in their own journey of turning ideas into things?

Caroline: [00:26:40] Right.

So an Epic Credential. This is what we were saying earlier about how it would be who've every it's seriously stop what you're doing. Like every single person in business who uses the word brand, who uses the word message, who uses the word storytelling and ask yourself what it is that you're actually doing.

Because, I've already explained my struggle with the word bio, my struggle with the word story. So an Epic Credential is. It's more valuable than a bio, right? Like the language itself has elevated the product. And so that I feel like people are, I know they are, cause I work with them.

They are, once you have language down and you're very clear on what you're doing, it is so much easier to create. Offerings around that. Right? And then once you create an offering around X, Y, Z, then you start to see something else, right. That, that creeps in some other realization of, Oh, they aren't, there's actually like a prequel to this, or a sequel to this, this offering that I have, and I.

I feel like by again, knuckling down on what it is that you're doing. This is going to generate more ways that you can package what it is that you actually do for people. And so anyway, it's like, it's the wellspring of your ideas. And I just, that was my aha. And that I've cause, cause I already had offerings on my website and when I came up with Epic Credential, it's like, all I really had to do was start using it and weave it into the, like the offerings that I already had.

That's great and all, but it also, it has elevated again, my services and it is helping me to see needs that are there. And I am creating other things as a result of that. 

Michelle: [00:29:12] For me what you were saying, that pauses that stepping back, because I feel like we either come up with an offer. We have a vague idea about what we're going to offer, or even if you're just offering like a package of three sessions to coach someone.

Right. It's that pause of? Like, how do I really want to talk about this and what do these words mean? Because I remember when I came up with the 3 Word Rebellion idea, And part of the reason why I have like such a long, like a long package for doing people's 3 Word Rebellions, it's like, yeah.

Cause you get your three words and then you have to figure out how you're going to talk about it and integrate it into your brand. Because I just remember being like great, this 3 Word Rebellion thing is super cool. How am I going to talk about it so that people see the value, see how cool it is.

And we don't spend enough time in that space and then we miss out on all the opportunities you were talking about. 

Caroline: [00:30:11] Yes, I swear. I think, okay. So I was really drawn to you because I was like, Ooh, I want a 3 Word Rebellion, and, but I think I was also especially drawn to you, Michelle, because it's like I related, I was like, here is someone who has, like, you have a very clear idea of what you mean by message.

You know what I mean? And you've taken the time because it's one of those words that's going to get used and is weird as a copywriter. I think I was thinking of messages like taglines, and I know I talked to someone in PR who thinks of messages completely differently. Right. And so it's like, and I was needing to do that in the bio realm. And so it was almost like, You know that internet sisterhood, where you're like, Oh, I get what she's, you know what? She's. Had to do with this word, and then built a whole education around it, yeah. Yeah. 

Michelle: [00:31:12] Cause it's like for me, I really think of message as this whole systemic framework that informs how you speak every time you open your mouth in your business and it's used everywhere in your business.

And most people don't think about message light. That. So yeah, I totally agree. And it's just, yeah, it's coming. Yeah. Defining those words and what you mean by them, because I quickly learned that the way I was approaching messaging work was quite different from everyone else in the industry.

Caroline: [00:31:43] Right? Yes. And I think that's again part of the allure. And I wanted to say, you mentioned the word opportunities, and I think this is, I'm like flying by the seat of my pants with this comment, but I, but you've been talking a lot about rebel marketing and your like that.

And I was like, I was thinking about how people are going to gravitate, when they need help with their marketing towards those formulas, that promise money. Right, right. Yep. And I, what this work does, what Epic Credential work does, what message work does is it's going to create opportunities for you that you can't imagine, like you can't see them, but you can imagine, like, what would happen if you made six figures this year, right?

If you made a million dollars, like, like you can imagine what those promises do for you, the promise of money. But I feel like this is a long game of really thinking about what you do. It's like there's opportunity there that you can't even really fathom. 

I just feel like that's what I promise people is opportunities.

You know what I mean? If you take the time to do this and you use it, like, people want to get behind you. They want to know you, they want to talk to you. That leads to things, and yeah. I feel more comfortable with that and less broey would that then saying like, oh, you're going to make a million dollars.

Michelle: [00:33:23] Yeah, you're going to make a million dollars from this Epic Credential. You're going, gonna make a million dollars from me. Yeah. 

Caroline: [00:33:29] A million dollars in the bank

Michelle: [00:33:29] I had a client last year who asked me like, she was like, I noticed in all of your testimonials, you don't talk about revenue or income or how much money people have made.

And I was like, yes, I do that very intentionally. 

Caroline: [00:33:42] Yes. Yes. I love that. And I went on some rant where I was like, boo ROI. Like someone had asked me about ROI and whenever anyone asks me about ROI, I feel like it's this really savvy business thing to ask like, Ooh, what's the return on investment. But it also makes me feel like yYou're not ready for this work. You know what I mean? Because you aren't ready to think you're looking for your guarantees. You know what I mean? 

Michelle: [00:34:11] Yeah. And it feels like a short term gain. Yeah. Cause I have done messaging work where I was working with somebody who was on the verge of our franchise deal for there.

This idea that they had on how they could help. Pets and yeah, they got their messaging in place and the franchise deal came together because they knew how to talk about it. And that was like the missing piece, but I'm not going to say, Oh yeah. And you're going to make multi-million dollars because it was such a specific thing.

They need it. 

Caroline: [00:34:41] Yeah, exactly. And so like, after I went on that ROI rant, I got an email from a client I worked with. And she actually, she had a video made out of her script that I wrote and she sends me this email and she goes, I just wanted you to know that she emailed me in October, like the end of October.

She was like, I haven't booked for 15 talks between now and the end of the year. Which is like an extra $50K or whatever. And she's in New Zealand, so she could actually go and do keynotes. 

But anyway, it was like, she was like, so there's your ROI, sweetheart kind of thing.

And anyway, and that's awesome, and, but yeah, that's been. Been her experience and yeah. It's like, but again, I wouldn't promise people 450K in three months, like, yeah. 

Michelle: [00:35:43] So are you ready for the lightning round of  3 Word Rebellion questions. 

Caroline: [00:35:47] I am. 

Michelle: [00:35:49] Okay. Here we go.

The first one, what's one thing you're rebelling against. 

Caroline: [00:35:56] I am rebelling against the insufficient use of language that buries the most important thing about your work and the point that you can't even to the point that you can't even see it. 

Michelle: [00:36:12] That breaks my heart. I feel that rebellion is very in the lead. Yes. Okay. 

So number two, what change do you want to create in the world? 

Caroline: [00:36:23] I want a more I want more meaning and wisdom leading the change behind what people do. 

Michelle: [00:36:32] Oh yes, please. More of that.

And then finally, if everyone had more meaning and wisdom behind what they do, what do you think the world would be like?

Caroline: [00:36:48] I think on the individual level, people would be way more confident. And the subject of imposter syndrome wouldn't be so popular. And I think on a bigger level, I'm like that world level, like. God, can you imagine a world where businesses weren't so full of shit, and they were actually like, meaning what they said, and we're leading with what they believe to be true. 

Michelle: [00:37:22] Yes, I am here for that. So tell everyone where they can find you. And if you have any goodies to share, please do that. I'm sure people want to check you 

Caroline: [00:37:32] out. Yeah. So I have a webinar right now. It's an opt-in on the five ways you can niche and that is on my website. You can find me on Instagram and you can find me on LinkedIn as well. Also, I would love to have you on my email list and like I said you get a pretty cool opt-in, that's all about a nation that I know is a really scary subject for people and top of mind seems like right now. So yes. 

Michelle: [00:38:12] Caroline has a great email list. I have to say, I enjoy your emails greatly. You're welcome. So thank you. And I'm so happy you were able to take the time and chat with us today. 

Caroline: [00:38:24] I'm so happy to be here. Thank you, Michelle.

__

I always love nerding out with a fellow messaging person. It is so much fun. And there are so many gems from this episode, but I wanted to hone in to one idea that you can reflect on:  where is your message selling your work short?

What struck me in this episode is how our titles, our I help statement, it's the results that we create the pithy testimonials on our websites. They sound like every one else’s and as Caroline mentioned, it's almost this hypnotic state and if you were to look at how you're currently talking about your work, where does your message sound like everyone else's? Where are the hidden opportunities to stand out and really communicate the value of the work you do? 

Reflect on those questions, because I believe that there are gems in there that can help you position and talk about your business in a whole different way because as Sally Hogshead says different is better than better.

So how can you communicate your difference? And if you're struggling, like Caroline was struggling to create a message that describes your work in a one of a kind way, then I'd love to talk to you about the 3 Word Rebellion Messaging Intensive. It's a 90 day one-on-one experience where you show up with all of your messy ideas and we get those out of your head and structure that into your, one of a kind message that powers your marketing copy and sales. So if that sounds like you and something you're interested in go to Dr. Michelle mazer.com/talk to book a complimentary consultation with me to see if this is the right next step for your business. That's Dr. Michelle mazer.com/talk.

Until next time. Go unleash your own Epic Credential. Find out what makes you different and lead with that one of a kind uncopyable message that uniquely describes your work.