Make Marketing Suck Less

Camille Rapacz [00:00:00]: “So I went down a whole path that was completely not right for my business, and it was very frustrating, and I wasted a lot of time doing a lot of stuff that wasn't really helpful.”

Michelle Mazur [00:00:15]: Welcome to Make Marketing Suck Less. The podcast that knows marketing is freaking hard, especially when you're a solo business owner trying to juggle it all. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, author of the 3 Word Rebellion and founder of the Expert Up Club. Forget the latest marketing fads and tactics promising social media stardom. I'm here with research-backed strategies to help you clarify your message and get twice as effective with your marketing. And while I can't promise you'll ever love marketing, I'm here. to make you hate it a tiny bit less.

Michelle Mazur [00:00:56]: You know what really sucks about marketing? When you're told to market in a certain way that works for every business. And only after you've done all that work, invested all that money, you find out that ish was never gonna work for your business. Over the years, I've worked with so many B2B consultants who've gone down this exact path only to find out what works to market for them doesn't look like any of that online BS. And this is why I wanted to talk to Camille Rapacz about how she corrected course and found out that marketing could actually be, dare I say, fun? You'll hear all about how Camille was marketing her consulting business, what she stopped doing to right size her marketing, and how she's now marketing in a way that plays to her strengths. So a little bit about Camille before we get started. She is a business consultant and leadership coach with expertise in strategic planning, leadership development, and team dynamics. She helps executive leadership teams develop the tools and skills they need to increase profits and become the employer of choice in their industry. Now enjoy this conversation, and I'll be back on the flip side.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:28]: Camille, welcome to Make Marketing Suck Less.

Camille Rapacz [00:02:32]: Thank you so much, Michelle. I am very excited for this conversation. Let's do it. Let's get into it.

Michelle Mazur [00:02:37]: I know. I am too. Because as we were just chatting, like, you are a B2B consultant, and we haven't. And I feel like well, no. I know B2B consultants market very differently than most other types of business owners. So I'm excited to find out what has sucked about marketing for you.

Camille Rapacz [00:03:00]: Oh my goodness. Do you want the long version? Do you want the short version?

Michelle Mazur [00:03:06]: How about, like, the medium length version?

Camille Rapacz [00:03:08]: The medium length version is, I think what has sucked the most was that when I started, I didn't understand that I needed to market differently than what I was seeing in the online business world. So I didn't have other, you know, B2B, businesses that I was really looking at and tapping. I just didn't understand how marketing was different in all these different ways because I didn't know anything about marketing. And so I went down a whole path that was completely not right for my business. And it was very frustrating. And I wasted a lot of time doing a lot of stuff that wasn't really helpful. And that's when it sucked.

Michelle Mazur [00:03:48]: I wanna dive into that. So how were you initially marketing? I'll start there. How were you initially marketing your business when you're first diving in?

Camille Rapacz [00:03:59]: When I was first diving in, I was following a lot of the just, you know, the online advice about, you know, posting on social media and writing blog posts and trying to be seen in all these different places. Maybe start a Facebook group. Like all of the trends. Right? Do do a do a group thing. Do a, a webinar. All of it. All of those things. And I just looked at them all.

Camille Rapacz [00:04:27]: Am I supposed to do this? Do I do that? Do I do all of these? I have done the, you know, hire somebody who can help you make better LinkedIn contacts and, you know, the whole gamut of things.

Camille Rapacz [00:04:43]: And not really understanding marketing, you just say yes because you think that all of those things are the right things to do. So I did a lot of that stuff. And email marketing, I should not skip over the email marketing as well.

Michelle Mazur [00:04:59]: Oh, yeah. Well, I mean, especially if you are new, you know, new to the marketing scene. Yeah. If you start following, like, the web celebs are gonna tell you, yeah, you gotta be on social media, and you've gotta do blog posts, and you've gotta do email marketing and post on social 3 times a day. And I already know the answer, so this is going to be a very leading question. But what was different about marketing in the B2B context?

Camille Rapacz [00:05:34]: I think the big thing that was different for me was recognizing how much it was really just about relationships. And none of my clients care about what I'm posting on Instagram or, frankly, even really LinkedIn, even though that's where they would mostly be. They're not paying attention to any of that. They don't wanna read any of my blog posts. They don't really wanna like, they're just not they don't have time for any of that. They just want to know and trust me by meeting me, like, actually meeting me on a real call or in person. And, yeah, it's just relationship based is what I realized.

Camille Rapacz [00:06:19]: Oh, that's my entire client base is all just from relationships that I've had in the past that then I've grown and I've developed and then that I continue to develop. And so all of those other things sort of serve as potentially good places to point them to see examples of how I think and how I work. But it's so overkill. It was so unnecessary and just not, there's no substance. There was no substance in it.

Michelle Mazur [00:06:47]: Yeah. And the other thing I will say about if you are a consultant, like, you don't need that many clients a year.

Camille Rapacz [00:06:57]: That's right. The type of work that I do, A lot of that marketing, that's such a good point. So much of the marketing was based on volume. Like you're getting, you know, you have to get so many people on your email list and so many people. I'm like, I don't, actually. I just need a handful of really good clients. And for the type of work I do, you're doing larger contracts. Right? So that's a and, also, that means you're building a very different relationship.

Camille Rapacz [00:07:22]: They're not gonna buy something from me off of a landing page. Like, that's that's not how it's gonna go, you know?

Michelle Mazur [00:07:30]: They don't want your package.

Camille Rapacz [00:07:32]: Right. And the thing that was frustrating, I think, going through the and this was my whole marketing journey really until I discovered you, Michelle, was just going through this journey of seeing all this advice. And I realize now looking back, I didn't know it then, but, you know, we're so smart when we look backwards. There were all these different ways to think about marketing based on the audience that you're trying to target. It was just the same pat answer all the time. Everybody just had the same answers for you. And, yeah, it's doing everybody a disservice.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:07]: Yeah. And it's that idea of, like, well, if it worked for me, it's going to work for every kind of business. And even, like, on the sales pages of some of these programs, it literally says that it works for everyone.

Camille Rapacz [00:08:20]: Yeah. Absolutely. Like, this will work for everything. And it's like, actually, no. That's really not true.

Michelle Mazur [00:08:28]: No. Not true at all. So what I'm hearing from you is, like, when you first started out as a consultant, you were doing all the online marketing garbage. And then you realize like, oh, I need to market differently because of how many clients I need, because of how my clients want to build a relationship and how they want to buy from me. So what decisions did you start to make or actions did you take to start doing less but better marketing?

Camille Rapacz [00:09:03]: It actually I kinda got forced into doing it. And so my decision came after I'd already done things. So I didn't do this in, you know, the most thoughtful order. But what happened is I got busier. So I was actually selling my business. I was marketing, but I wasn't thinking of it as marketing because I was just talking to people and building relationships and doing good work. And so then I would get a bigger contract from the same client who would sign me up to do more. And so as things got busier, it's really, I don't have time to do all these other things.

Camille Rapacz [00:09:36]: And I didn't wanna hire somebody to start doing them because I didn't feel that good about them. I didn't feel like I was getting returns. I'm like, I don't think this is a good place for me to put my money. So I'm just gonna stop for a while. Just for a little while. I'm just gonna stop for a little while. So I stopped on my social media posting first and foremost because I always hated it.

Camille Rapacz [00:09:55]: So that felt great. And then I then I felt good about it. And then I wondered, maybe I'm a bad business owner because I am not good at that. So you have all the doubt, right, that sneaks in. But it was doing that that I realized, wait a minute. When I stopped doing that, and then I just really focused on my clients and who those clients could introduce me to and my and my whole network of people that I knew, my business just really started to take off.

Camille Rapacz [00:10:25]: And so then I just and then I remember it was actually in a conversation with you in one of our group sessions realizing I've been fretting over, but I should at least do email was what I kept thinking. Even if I'm not doing social media, I should probably at least do email because that's just pounded into your head. Right? You have to have an email list. Yes. And I remember you saying, Camille, it's okay for you to not have an email list. And I was like. It is okay because my clients, they don't want any more email. They do not want email from me unless it's about work I'm actually doing for them.

Camille Rapacz [00:10:56]: And people who aren't my clients yet also do not want my email because that's just spam to them. Unless my email is inviting them to have a conversation about solving a problem. But they don't wanna do that.

Michelle Mazur [00:11:07]: No. And I especially think in the B2B context, like, email marketing can work, but it's usually like a quarterly email that you send. Just to kind of like, hey, here are some new trends that I'm seeing so that it's like insanely useful to them. But I always say it's like B2B consultants, you need a really good CRM. Like, a way to, like, manage your contacts.

Camille Rapacz [00:11:30]: That was the main shift. Absolutely. So it was like no more spreadsheet whatever thing, managing my social media postings and my my no more managing my content marketing, I will say. It was just content, like, whatever way I'm putting it out there, emails or blogs or social media. I'm not worried about content marketing so much as now I'm just worried about or focused on relationship building. So yes, the CRM was big. And then I my next decision was, okay, I still do, though, value creating content because I like the, what it does for my brain to keep me on top of things and You know, reading the latest whatever's going on in my industry and my world that I care about and my expertise.

Camille Rapacz [00:12:14]: But I wanted a way to stay up on that and also be able to demonstrate to people that this is how I think and what I do. And so that's where I landed on, I'm gonna start a podcast because that just felt like a natural way to do it in a way that I would like doing it. It also helps that I do it with my brother. So I'm just getting on a call with my brother and talking about stuff that I and so it made it fun. And that was important to me. It needed to have some sort of fun in it.

Camille Rapacz [00:12:43]: And so as much as it's work to do it, I enjoy doing it. And now I just have that one place where I can point anybody who's like, hey. I wanna refer somebody to you. They'll say, give me a couple episodes so that they can listen to your podcast. And so it works. Everything now is through the lens of if somebody's going to refer me, how can I give them a flavor of who I am besides just my website?

Michelle Mazur [00:13:06]: Smart. One of the things that's making me think of in episode 370, I talked to Jessica Lecke, and she was talking about the difference between, like, feed based versus playlist marketing. And, like, feed based, you know, you put something up on your Instagram feed or LinkedIn and it appears. But with, like, a playlist, like, you can actually give that to people they can listen to and get a flavor for you, but also get your perspective on how you do the work you do.

Camille Rapacz [00:13:39]: Yes. Absolutely. And it it's been really effective for me also for clients who have worked with me in the past, and they keep listening to the podcast. They come back to me because they're like, it's been great. It's almost like you're just my little coach in the background helping me as from the podcast. And then when and so they don't forget about me, and they'll think, oh, I'm ready to work on the next thing. I should hire her back to help me with my next challenge in my business. And so it also helps me stay kind of relevant for them and top of mind as opposed because, you know, out of sight, out of mind, and they're super busy.

Camille Rapacz [00:14:10]: So it's been useful in thinking of it as a relationship building and maintenance tool as opposed to a marketing. Like, I just have to I'm not using it to try and find new people. I'm using it as nurturing. Right? I'm nurturing all the relationships that I have. And when I made that shift into it's about relationship, that was the, I think, the big mindset shift for me with marketing was just focus on building relationships. And any of these tools, whether I'm sending an email, whatever I'm doing, it's about. Strengthening those relationships that I have.

Michelle Mazur [00:14:44]: And I wanted to get your perspective on this because it's something that have heard a lot is that people are out there. They're building relationships. They're networking. They're meeting people. They're nurturing the relationships they have, and they don't consider that marketing. And you mentioned that at the beginning of this conversation. So why didn't you think building relationships was marketing?

Camille Rapacz [00:15:11]: I think it comes from when you start out so for me, I started out, you know, not being a business owner and just being a person working a job. Right? And when you have a job, you think about building relationships with people. Right? I need to build relationships with my colleagues to work well. I want to build relationships in order to, you know, get promotions in order to, like, you're thinking about, I need to know people. You realize, like, it's who you know that gets you where you wanna go in business.

Camille Rapacz [00:15:44]: I had not and then when you think about running a business, I just think in business terms, like, oh, I have to figure out how to do marketing. And I that had a different word that even though how do I want to say it? Because there was this word marketing that I had to figure out how I was going to acquire clients, It just didn't occur to me that it was this similar thing that I was doing when I was building relationships as an employee, you know, as a person just working in a business. And I don't know why that was, but it just didn't translate until later. It wasn't until later that I really made the connection of and I've gone the other direction, too. And I think I've said this to you before. Like, boy, I wish people that are just, you know, that are leaders in organizations actually understood the role of marketing in their leadership role because so much of what they're doing is also marketing. They're having to, you know, influence, and they're building relationships. And, you know, we talk about getting buy in on ideas, and that's marketing.

Camille Rapacz [00:16:51]: There's something about the way that we use words and the definitions that we sort of put to them that I think really confuses all of this for people. Because at the end of the day, it is just you're trying to create a connection and a relationship with somebody in order for them to give you money into exchange for your services or your product. And the level of relationship just varies based on what it is that they're buying from you. So if they're spending a whole lot of money with you, that's a whole level different type of relationship than if they're just buying a T-shirt from me.

Michelle Mazur [00:17:24]: Yes.

Camille Rapacz [00:17:24]: And that's what's missed in the whole marketing thing, I think.

Michelle Mazur [00:17:28]: And what I find interesting about that is that I think there's this conception that marketing is, like, one to many. Like, we have to broadcast. Because if you think about it, like, social media, that is a broadcasting platform. It's like, I'm gonna push out content, and then hopefully people respond and they wanna hire me versus, like, relationships are just, like, 1x1. And it is a completely different vibe.

Camille Rapacz [00:18:00]: Yes.

Michelle Mazur [00:18:01]: But it's still marketing.

Camille Rapacz [00:18:03]: Yes. Okay. Can I throw another thing out that it was really critical in my marketing journey that it just popped into my head, which is there's also an aspect to figuring out what marketing meant for me that wasn't so much about my B2B, the type of business, but about who I am? So and and I and this has come up a few times now in some conversations we've been having, in the Expert Up Club, which is that I'm an introvert. And that means, believe it or not, I even find it hard to be present on social media. My introvertness makes me also not want to be there. It makes me not want I don't want to broadcast myself. Like, not that's not what I do. And I remember thinking in the marketing stand, I was like, I'm gonna have to figure out how to get good at this and overcome my introvertness in order to be good at marketing.

Camille Rapacz [00:18:59]: I remember having that thought. And then when I figured out, no, it's about relationships, and for me, I'm building strong, individual relationships. And that's how introverts work. Like, we work better on, like, a 1x1 small group setting than we do in a large group. And so figuring out how to do your marketing well in a way that suits your strengths. So instead of thinking of being an introvert as a weakness, I think of it as a strength. Like, my ability to spend time my patience with spending time to really get to know somebody and understand them, understand their business, understand their problems, I can stay focused on that question and that problem with them long enough to build the trust I need for them to hire me. And that's my that's my superpower of what I can do.

Camille Rapacz [00:19:50]: And so that was a big shift for me as well, just realizing I don't need to be an extrovert to be good at selling my services and my business. That's not actually why people hire me. They hire me for my actual strengths as in partly that come from being an introvert.

Michelle Mazur [00:20:08]: Well, and there's no way for you to overcome your introversion. Like, having to broadcast would always feel like you're a square peg in a round hole. It would never be comfortable.

Camille Rapacz [00:20:23]: It never was. And I think that was like that was just a really big awakening for me of just, wow, I'm fighting something that I should not be fighting. I should instead be embracing who I am and figure out how to market that way. And I've talked to other folks, like I said, in the Expert Up Club. I know other people have mentioned, like, wow, I'm figuring out how I do this my way and, you know, recognizing that I am an introvert. And a lot of people that do the type of work that I do, working really intensely with organizations and corporations, you know, internally, are introverts. Like, they're doing that work well because they have that that's how their brain works in a way that really supports them in doing that work well.

Camille Rapacz [00:21:03]: So I just I find that really fascinating too because it just gets back to the what we value in society and how it contradicts what actually works for people a lot of times.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:15]: Oh, yeah. I mean, it goes back to this like, I always say, like, the way that you are going to market your business is going to be completely unique to you, because it should be playing to your strengths as an individual. The last thing I want to have happened to anyone is, like, marketing that just, like, sucks the life out of you.

Camille Rapacz [00:21:36]: Right.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:40]: You're not gonna wanna do it..

Camille Rapacz [00:21:41]: Yeah. And back to the, like, what makes marketing suck? What makes it suck is that they make you feel like they, you know, who have I don't know. You have a good definition how you define the they.

Michelle Mazur [00:21:51]: The web celebs.

Camille Rapacz [00:21:52]: The web celebs. Yes. They define marketing in a way that makes you feel like if you're not doing all of these things in this way, like being a super, you know, showman out there,they just makes you feel bad. Like, oh, I guess I'm just not cut out for this. And it kind of trying to force you into this mold that isn't right for you and not really recognizing individuals for who they are. And it's bad. And that makes it suck.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:19]: Yes. Exactly. Okay. So I have 2 more questions for you before we wrap up. So number 1 is, how are you meeting new people these days and building those relationships?

Before Camille tells us how she's meeting new people and building new relationships, we're gonna take a quick break.

Michelle Mazur [00:22:42]: Ready to figure out what's working to market your business and what you can stop doing just like Camille did? Then I have this great free email based course for you. It's called Market Like An Expert, a 7 day crash course to create a do less but better marketing strategy that creates demand for your offers and expertise while doing less marketing. How about that? You're gonna get 7 emails delivered right to your inbox that take you through the process to right size your marketing so you're only focused on marketing that actually works for your business, your bottom line, and sanity.

Sign up at drmichellemazur.com/mle. That's the letters M L E, or open up your podcast app. Click the link for market like an expert. Now back to our show.

Camille Rapacz [00:23:48]: There's 2 tracks that I'm on right now for how I meet people. So one of the meeting people so sometimes I talk about this as I'm trying to find my people, which are people that I'm not necessarily looking to build a relationship because I think that they might hire me or know someone will hire me, but they're just fellow business owners that are kind of in the same space that I am. So we can have conversations like this that are really helpful and help you grow your business. So I've been, you know, dabbling and joining different, you know, networking groups to try and find my people. I'm still on that journey of where are my people, and how do I just have those because I think that's really important. You need a community that you can be part of. So that's part of the and sometimes that has led to work. Like, that does, you know, say, hey, my husband works for this company, and I think they need your services.

Camille Rapacz [00:24:34]: Let me introduce you kind of thing. But that's not what I'm in it for. Right? Then on the other side, I am basically fostering the relationships that I have. So I've been fortunate enough that I'm working in a company that's actually part of a really large, like, collection of companies. And so my networking and marketing is actually relationship building within this larger organization. And it is leading to other so I'm looking at, well, who do I know and then who's adjacent that I can build a because it's a really easy relationship, and it's a really to build and a really easy introduction to get.

Camille Rapacz [00:25:15]: So I'll say to the client I'm working with now, hey. I really want to connect with this other president of that other company that's, you know, a sister company of yours. Would you do an introduction? He's more than happy to do that. And then I have a conversation and a meeting, and it leads to work. So I've been really looking at strategically who are my clients and what's my next move from that client out to the next relationship While also looking at on this on this same vein, I've also been looking to past contacts that I had in my previous job that I just haven't been in touch with. So whether they were consultants that worked for me or just people that I knew and just reaching out to let them know what I'm actually doing because they don't know. But the most powerful one is working from the place of who are the clients I have and how can they, help me build a relationship with somebody adjacent? Because I find they're they're they're lovely and more than happy to help you.

Michelle Mazur [00:26:16]: That is so great. I mean, so it's not like you are meeting a bunch of cold relationships. It's really like, how can I take the relationships that I have in this organization and spread them and make them grow and go deeper with them versus finding a whole new organization

Camille Rapacz [00:26:34]: Exactly. And it I again, I'm lucky that I have that type of organization that that doesn't probably work for everybody. But I do think there is something to even if you're working in if I was just working in one division of an organization, then I might try to build relationships with other divisions in that organization. Because why wouldn't I? They're like, oh, yeah. I trustmy colleague so and so who says you do a great job.

Camille Rapacz [00:27:00]: And sure, I'd be happy to talk to you about what you can do. And they don't really know what you can do until you that's the other thing. You can't assume that they actually know what you're able to help them do and then, you know, what problems you can solve for them until they talk to you.

Michelle Mazur [00:27:13]: Yes. Exactly. Exactly. Alright. So one final question before I let you tell us how we can find you. Is how do you feel about marketing now that you've made these changes that you've gone from this, like, broadcasting, one to many social media, email your list to really focusing on building relationships? How does it feel now?

Camille Rapacz [00:27:39]: Oh,it doesn't suck. Let me just say that. It does not suck anymore. I don't really I remember I used to have to really have a plan for what I was gonna do because otherwise, I just wouldn't do anything. And now it comes naturally. It just feels it feels easier. It feels natural. It's more common sense.

Camille Rapacz [00:28:00]: And there's a lot of things that I have yet to do in my so I do have a plan, and I do have a CRM. And I have, you know, things that I do. And I have things that I'm working to improve. But none of it feels, as stressful and overwhelming and daunting as it used to feel. It now just feels energizing, and I'm excited. Like, I can't wait till I get this next thing in place and this other thing in place.

Camille Rapacz [00:28:28]: And the relationship stuff is just it really has just come naturally. Something will pop up and I'll be like, oh, I know what you know what I should do? And I just drop this little idea in and I follow-up on it later, and it's it's just and it's working. I've just I mean, I just came off of my absolute best month ever, last month just because I'm following more of my instincts and what works for me really well and not fighting it and not trying to, you know, make sure that I'm fitting some perfect mold. I'm just going with what works.

Michelle Mazur [00:28:57]: Yeah. Alright, Camille. Thank you so much. This has been amazing. And I should also say that if you ever want to hang out with Camille, she does lead our B2B Brain Trust and the Expert Up Club. We have a whole special section for our B2B folks to talk about the topics in marketing and just kind of in general for them. But other than the Expert Up Club, where else can people find you?

Camille Rapacz [00:29:25]: Yes. It would definitely find me the Expert Up Club. But, yeah, where else can people find me? I, just as we said, I'm not really on the socials and doing all the things. So I do have a LinkedIn profile. You can find me at Camille Rapacz. My website is camille rapacz.com. I'm also in a whole rebranding thing, so that will be a whole other discussion that we can have. So someday, that website's gonna be all fancy and new.

Camille Rapacz [00:29:52]: But, yeah, if you wanna learn more about what I do, my website is definitely the best place to go. And then because I'm all about relationships, it's basically book a call. That's the only thing that's on my website is book a call so we can have a conversation because it has to start there.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:08]: I love it. I love it. Well, thank you so much for taking the time today and making marketing suck less for other B2B consultants.

Camille Rapacz [00:30:19]: Yes. There it's yeah, if you're a B2B consultant, just completely rethink all your stuff and just stop listening to the web celebs and listen to what Michelle has to say because it definitely has helped me reframe everything. And marketing not only doesn't have to suck, it can actually be fun. I can't believe I just said that.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:40]: I can't believe you said that either.

Camille Rapacz [00:30:43]: But it's true. I meant it..

Michelle Mazur [00:30:46]: Thanks so much, Camille.

Camille Rapacz [00:30:48]: You're so welcome.

Michelle Mazur [00:30:52]: This was such a fascinating conversation with Camille, and I hope it gave you permission to stop doing marketing that does not work for your audience. If your marketing is not the preferred way your client wants to interact with you, then you don't need to do it. And here's what else I took away from this interview with Camille. First, not every marketing tactic works for every business. When a web celeb tells you that it does, they are just trying to cast the widest net possible to juice their revenue. Every industry has differences, and you need to be aware of those differences in order to market in the most effective way so that you see results.

Michelle Mazur [00:31:48]: Number 2, surprise. Not every business needs an email list. I know. I know what you've been told. But for someone like Camille, who just needs a handful of clients, we're talking 4 to 5 clients, my friends, it does not make sense for her to spend time building an email list and emailing those people every single week. That is not how they want to interact with her. It does make sense to have a CRM so that she can keep track of the people she's meeting and she knows when to follow-up or just touch base and see how things are going. And the final takeaway from this, don't try to overcome your weaknesses to market in a way that's never going to work for you personally. I loved our whole conversation around introversion. Camille knew she would never overcome her introversion to show up with marketing that is more for the extrovert.

Michelle Mazur [00:32:57]: She can't change who she is at her core. So why not play into her strengths of being an introvert and developing those deeper relationships? So here's to marketing in a way that works for your audience, plays into your strengths, and how you most like to show up because that's what makes marketing, oh my god, FUN.

Michelle Mazur [00:32:57]: If the Make Marketing Suck Less pod is making your marketing more effective so that your clients can find and hire you, please share the show with a friend. The easiest way to do that is through pod link. You can find the show at pod.link/rebel, and that page will allow anyone you share the show with to subscribe and start listening in their favorite podcast player.

That's pod.link/rebel.

The Make Marketing Suck Less podcast is a production of Communication Rebel. Our production coordinator is Jessica Gulley-Ward. The podcast is edited by Steven Mills, our executive producer is me, Dr. Michelle Mazur.

The make marketing suck less podcast is recorded on the unseated traditional lands of the coast salish peoples, specifically the first people of Seattle, the Duwamish people, original stewards of the land, past, and present.