Rebel Uprising Podcast

How to Get Your Marketing Message Heard


Have you ever said to yourself, if I can just get people on the phone with me, I know I can make the sale. But the problem is getting them to that phone call in the first place.

I hear this all the time when I'm on a call with a potential client.

And it tells me two very important things.

Number one, it tells me what they are doing is tremendously valuable. And that when they're talking with someone one-on-one, they are very skilled at communicating the value their business is creating for that other person.

So that is something to celebrate. That is a success. 

But it also tells me that what they are saying during that sales call is being lost in translation in their marketing. And that’s why they’re having such a hard time getting people on the phone in the first place.

Their sales messaging is not translating into a marketing message that people find compelling.

But why does it happen? Why can't we translate what we say on a sales call to another human being into that brilliant marketing message?

The answer is found in the environment where we are communicating about our business.

Today we are exploring the true conditions of communication. Or, what needs to happen in order to get our message heard, understood, and acted on.

In This Episode:

  • How distraction, noise, and misunderstandings impact your message
  • Why motivation and ability are key factors to persuasive messaging
  • Four essentials to get through the marketing noise

Learn more about Michelle Mazur:



Listen on your favorite podcast player or read the Transcript below:


Dr. Michelle Mazur (00:00): Think about the last email you sent to your list, or your last post on social media. Do you have that in your head? Good. Now ask yourself, what was your intention behind that email or post? What did you want it to do for your business? What did you want it to do for your audience? Sometimes we get caught up in posting or emailing for all the wrong reasons. We think, "Ooh, it's been ages since I've emailed my list. I hope people remember me." Or, "I'm going to post this because I know the algorithm will like it," even if it's not really great at communicating your message.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (00:46): Every time I send an email or write a podcast, the first thing I do is get crystal clear on my intention behind saying something. I think about what I want it to do for my business. I think what I want it to do for you. What's the transformation I want to give to you from listening to my podcast. And when I am clear on my intention, I don't get sidetracked worrying about things that don't matter like all of the vanity metrics that social media is so willing to serve up to us. On this episode of the podcast, which is the second episode in a four-part series about playing the game of communication, let's talk about why we business owners get so fixated on vanity metrics, and how we can start measuring what really matters. So let's dive in.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (01:52): You're listening to the Rebel Uprising podcast. This podcast is dedicated to helping passionate business owners become recognized leaders who make more money and impact the world by turning their messy, complicated ideas into thriving thought leadership businesses. I'm your host, Dr. Michelle Mazur, and I'll be your no-BS guide in the art of building a business that gets noticed. Each week, I share strategies, tools, and insights on how to turn your complicated ideas into great messaging and solid business structures. Are you ready to create an uprising in your industry? Let's do this.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (02:34): In the last episode of the pod, I posed a question, are you playing the game of communication or are you communicating? Now, how can you tell the difference? You know you're playing the game of communication if the goal you have for your business or your mission for your business is usurped by the goals of an online platform. And those goals tend to be about going viral, amassing follower, spending time on the platform. So when all of a sudden you find yourself more concerned with going viral or build a massive audience or some goal that isn't actually yours, instead of forwarding the mission that you have behind your business, that's when you're playing the game.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (03:34): I know it's happening to me when I get super obsessed with the number of email subscribers I have, which is a ridiculous vanity metric. And when I am thinking about those email subscribers, I'm not thinking about the individual people reading my email, I'm thinking about scoring points and getting more subscribers because we're all he is told an online business that you need more people and a big email list. The money is in the list. And when I'm focused on that number, I'm not focused on moving towards my mission with helping people who are doing amazing work be seen, heard, and valued.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (04:19): As C. Thi Nguyen says in his article on the gamification of Twitter, gamification increases our motivation by changing the nature of the activity. So when I'm thinking about email marketing, I'm not thinking about connecting with people who are in interested in my work, who I'm interested in helping, who I want to serve in some sort of way to get their message seen and heard and out into the world. Instead, I'm just obsessed with the nature of the email marketing itself, thinking about subscribers and open rates and all that stuff. So why is it so easy to have our goals and our mission replaced by the goals of a tech platform or of that web slab that doesn't even know us or our business?

Dr. Michelle Mazur (05:11): The answer is gamification and how we keep score. Collecting points on a platform, whether that's shares, likes, comments, or email subscribers, or traffic to your website, those points they're easily visible, and we think they're telling us that we're making progress, just like when we correct points when we play Mario Kart, right? It lets us know if we're winning or losing the game of business. The points in and of themselves can become the reason or intention behind our messaging in marketing.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (05:53): So why are the points in online platforms so persuasive that they can cause us to lose sight of why we started our business in the first place that we lose sight of what our mission is? And the biggest reason is that games are simpler, easier, clearer to play and apply. Playing the game of social media, you know about hooks and hashtags and reels and carousels. And this is the rules of Instagram, right? And if you follow the rules, you'll accumulate the points and perhaps you'll win. Maybe you'll go viral. Awesome. You'll be featured in the Explorer tab.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (06:32): You know, you've won because the points systems, they're so easily displayed on the internet. Think about all the vanity metrics, whether it is income claims or traffic to websites or sales revenue generated, all of those numbers that people share readily on social media, in their email or blog posts, they're ease see to display. Let's use income claims as an example. We see someone who talks about all the money they've made, all the revenue they've generated in the first quarter. And yes, that is a point system that really only tells you that this person is good at making money for themselves.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (07:19): That's the points they're chasing for their business, is revenue. But how we perceive it as recipients of that communication is like, "Oh, this person could help me make money." But really, that's not what it's indicating. It tells you nothing about the quality of your work, but it's just an easy way to keep score. Those who make more money are better entrepreneurs and business owners, right? Ugh, not really. The other one to think about is followers, an appeal to popularity. And we think, "Oh, this person has so many followers." People celebrate hitting follower milestones. And the real truth is just because something is popular doesn't mean they are great at what they do, or they have a successful business.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (08:09): Followers is just a way to measure popularity or how well they play the game of Instagram or Twitter or Facebook. But how do you know if you're winning the game of your mission, the goals you have, the why behind your business? And in that case, the rules are messy. It's not easy to apply a point system, and the point system is not necessarily as visible or easily accessed. Does this mean that all the point systems that these platforms give us and that celebrity entrepreneurs hold us to, does it mean that these point systems are bad? And the answer is no. The difference lies between how you look and value the point system.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (08:58): So going back to C. Thi Nguyen's article and the gamification of Twitter, he proposes that there are two types of Twitter users. And you can really think about this as two types of any technology user. There's the value capture or the value independent user. Because for me, either/or scenarios always confuse the crap out of me, so when you think about value capture, picture it like this, Mark Zuckerberg, carrying a net, and every time you log on Facebook, the net captures you and he swoops you into the platform. And instead of caring about your mission and your goals behind your business, his values take over yours. And now you are playing his game in instead of doing what you need to do for your business.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (09:58): So when his own values or point system like reach, likes and comments, and don't forget time on platform is very important to Zuckerberg, overtakes yours, you're captured by the point system, the value that's being created. Now, most of us, including myself, have been captured by a platform, we have been value-captured users. And we are taught this by a lot of online business owners, especially those who are teaching social media or business building in general, that it's all about the numbers and the likes and the comments and the emails, the subscribers.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (10:38): But there is another way. And C. Thi Nguyen calls this the value independent user. And this is the person who is clear on the intention behind their communication and use the visible point system to track progress instead of using it to measure success or failure. So for instance, if I'm playing with a new angle of my message, I can post it on social media and I can look, how are people reacting to it? Knowing that the algorithm is probably messing with it and not very many people are seeing it, but are people commenting? Do they like it? Do they share it? And I'll be like, "Oh, okay, interesting. This might be a good angle for me to explore in my message."

Dr. Michelle Mazur (11:27): But if I was a value-captured user, it would be all about like, "Okay, how can I optimize this message so I get more likes and follows and shares?" So it's a very different thing because in scenario one, I'm testing a part of my message that holds my mission and my vision and my goals for my business versus chasing after the likes and the comments.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (11:51): If you are listening to this podcast and realizing that, "Hey, you know what, I'm not having the sales that I want to have. My business isn't generating the revenue it should be generating." Then it might be time for you to work on your message and figure out that comprehensive strategy for how to build that argument for your work and turn people who don't know you at all into people who are ready and willing to sign up to work with you.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (12:28): And this is exactly the work we do in the 3 Word Rebellion messaging intensive. So if you're digging this episode and you're thinking, "Yes, this is my next step, or it could be in my next step," then I encourage you to go to, the number 3, wr, that's, and apply for a free consultation call. That way, you and I can discuss if messaging is the right move for your business. Now, back to the show.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (13:08): So how do you become more of this value independent user, where you're using the metrics these platforms give us to guide and not define success for you and your business? The first step is to be clear on your message and your intention behind your communication. The first thing I do before I write any piece of content is I use two questions that I got from Anne Handley's book, Everybody Writes, and I ask myself these questions before I create anything. Number one is, "What is the purpose of this content for my business?" And number two, "What's it for the reader? What do I want them to get out?"

Dr. Michelle Mazur (13:59): Because usually, most of my content has the business purpose of getting you ready to work with me, or maybe I'm promoting a workshop or the book, but that's the business purpose, or maybe I'm creating something because I want to reach a wider audience. It has a business purpose. But when I'm thinking about my intention for like why I created this podcast episode for you, I'm hoping that I'm giving you permission to set yourself free from the metrics that so define what business is these days and really embrace your authentic message and yourself so that you can attract the right people with your message. And remember, all marketing is an argument for your work. It's leading people through a process to become aware of you, then understand the problem they have, see if it matches the problem you solve, and then you show them how you solve that problem. But we have to get clear on the intention and be clear on the message we want to express.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (15:14): Step two, create your own invisible point system. There is so much we don't see when we put our workout into the world. For instance, I can tell you how many books I sold in the month of March, but you know what I can't tell you? I can't tell you if the people have read the book or it's just sitting on their shelves. I can't tell you if the people are doing the exercises. I don't know if someone who bought the book four months ago just started the book now, is now thinking of booking a consult call with me. I don't know, I don't have any visibility. I don't have any visibility if somebody's recommending the book right now.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (15:56): And I think this is why we love funnels so much, we love the security of seeing 1,000 people at the top of the funnel who've opted in. And then 20 booking sales calls, knowing that will produce 10 new clients. We love that line of sight. But most of our messaging and our marketing just doesn't work that way. Clients, referrals, high caliber opportunities come from putting our work and the marketing assets. We create out into the world and letting them do their thing. At first, have to be the advocate for our message and our work with the intention of having others be the messenger of our message. And here's the thing, we don't know who's sharing their message.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (16:45): So I've kind of created some new like point systems, not really point systems, to know if I'm doing my work, if I'm getting my mission out there, if I'm helping my people actually be seen and heard for their work. And one thing that I'm keeping track of right now, my own personal invisible point system is if my message and my marketing is doing its job, people should be ready to work with me when they get on a consult call with me. And how I measure that is I am looking for people who have told me they listen to the podcast, they have the book. Maybe they haven't read the whole book, but they have it, they've browsed through it, they like what they saw. They've been on my email community for a while.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (17:34): So I'm measuring it by the quality of conversations. So I look for things like, "I heard the podcast on how to know if I'm ready to work with you and I checked all four of the boxes." Like, oh, okay, she knows my work. When I hear that, or, "I read your book, I did all the exercises and I couldn't figure it out, so I just want to hire the expert." Those are all people who have consumed content and are ready to work for me. So if I'm having high-quality conversations where people demonstrate a familiarity of my I work, I know that my message is working. So what can you track that lets you know that you're on the right track in achieving your vision and mission for your business?

Dr. Michelle Mazur (18:23): And finally, use the metrics that the platforms give you as a way to measure progress, not as a way to track the success of your business and your goals that you want to achieve in your business. Metrics, don't get me wrong, I track my metrics every single Monday, and they are very helpful in keeping me on track, but they don't tell me if my business is effective., if my message is effective, if I'm getting the right people to work with me. They're numbers, they give me a guide, but I don't let my business be defined by how much money I am making or how many followers and subscribers I have.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (19:14): Don't let likes or subscriber counts, be the end goal. I know this is hard, I know this is contrary to what we're told in the online space. Now, for the third part of our series on playing the game of communication, we are going to look at, what are the conditions of true communication? What needs to happen in order for your message, for what your business does to be seen, heard, understood, and acted on? And in the meantime, always go back to the intention behind why you're saying what you're saying in your marketing, and hold the points these platforms provide you very loosely.

Dr. Michelle Mazur (20:05): Thank you for listening all the way to the end of the show. Your support means the world to me. Did you know the Rebel Uprising Podcast has a quiz that can help you pinpoint the number one way to build an audience of super fans while staying true to your unique personality? We do. And it's called What's Your Rebel Roadmap to Exponential Impact and Influence? And you can take it at If you are loving the podcast, do us a favor, rate and leave us a quick five-star review wherever you listen to your podcasts. It helps more people like you find the show. Until next week, remember, your ideas matter. And now, get back out there and cause an uprising in your industry. You got this.

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